Teaching While Queer: Katelynn Hartman-Geier

Teaching While Queer with Katelyn Hartman-Geier

Intro: [00:00:00] Teaching While Queer is a podcast for LGBTQIA+ teachers, administrators, and well anyone who works in academia to share their stories. Hi, my name is Bryan Stanton, a queer theater educator in San Antonio, Texas. Each week I bring you stories from around the world centered on the experiences of LGBTQIA+ folks in academia.

Thank you for joining me on this journey and enjoy Teaching While Queer.

Host: Hello everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Teaching While Queer. I am so excited to have with me today Katelynn Hartman-Geier, who is joining me from St. Louis, Missouri. Hi, Katelynn.

Katelynn: Hey there, Bryan. Nice to meet you. Glad to be here. 

Host: Nice to meet you too. Hey, tell me a little bit about yourself. What do you teach? How do you identify with the community?

Katelynn: So I teach elementary Health and PE so I have the little bitties grades, kindergarten through fifth. [00:01:00] I am a cisgender lesbian. I'm just outside of St. Louis. I teach at a suburb, but I live more in the rural side the outskirts of St. Louis. 

Host: Awesome. You are my second teacher from St. Louis. I have a friend of mine who I know from grad school who teaches theater in St. Louis, so it's super fun to get your perspective because mine is from Texas. So I love hearing from people all over the place. to get started, can we take a little time trip? Can you tell me a little bit about your experience growing up as a queer student? 

Katelynn: Oh man. Okay. So, I wasn't really aware of like anything queer whatsoever growing up. Okay, so I'm gonna date myself a little bit. I was in elementary school in like the nineties . My family's super Catholic. Love them to death, but very religious and we just didn't have those conversations.

 I didn't really see myself in anything, but also I didn't know, I didn't even know what queer was. I knew like gay people were like bad and, you know, we go to hell or whatever. So, okay. I have a flashbulb memory, [00:02:00] and this is like when I knew I was in second grade and we had this assembly and the high school dancers came over like, like the theater kids.

They put on a production. It was really cool. And at the end of it, my best friend's like, wow, the boys are really cute. And I'm like, the boys . Oh. I'm like, oh, well, yeah, I guess that's great too. I was looking at I was looking at the blonde, the blonde lady right there. I'm like, what do you mean? So at that point I'm like, oh, that's, I wasn't supposed to respond like that.

That's different. So, and just like throughout, like my, you know, my glow up from elementary to high school. I had like these little moments where it was like, you know, kinda makes you think, but you know, I just didn't acknowledge that because it wasn't something that I just wasn't aware of it, you know, it was still a very taboo yeah, I just, it wasn't, it wasn't talked about.

And because it wasn't talked about, I didn't have the language to describe my experiences or how I felt. 

Host: 100%. I have that similar experience cuz I also [00:03:00] grew up in the nineties and so it was a wild time for me because we literally just didn't have the language because it was something that was so taboo, we just never talked about it.

Katelynn: Yes. 

Host: And so, like, I think I was called, called words before I even knew what those words meant. 

Katelynn: Yes. 

Host: And so it was just such an interesting time and like, you know, more words are even being developed as we're, as you know, as an adult. I'm seeing new words that are coming out to help us with the community and kind of self-identification.

And I just think it's so interesting that like the words came after the realizations, like, yes, I'm different. 

Katelynn: Yes. even now, like you said, , you know, we're, and in our, as we grow, we're more aware of different diversities of identities and everything else we are having, we're creating more language to better describe what people feel and how they are and who they are. This evolution. 

Host: Yep. I just finished watching the new "League of their Own" series. And have you seen it? 

Katelynn: [00:04:00] Yes. 

Host: So I didn't know, like, and I've studied a lot of LGBTQ history. I have a minor in it from grad school or sorry undergrad. And I've studied a lot of LGBTQ history, and I'd never heard the term "invert," and I was like, oh, that's such an interesting word because I always knew that the vocabulary of like queers and queer and that word popped up a lot in the series, but the word invert was new for me. And I was like, see, look, every day you're learning something new that's used as an identifier. Granted, well, it was not a good identifier, but... 

Katelynn: Yes. Even my kids at school, elementary kids teach me new words every day. Like, I'm a sapiosexual. What can you, I need a little education on that. and it's your attract to someone's is it a mental connection? 

Host: I think it's intellect. 

Katelynn: Intellectual, yes. 

Host: Yeah. I have friends who are like, I'm totally a [00:05:00] sapiosexual, and I'm like, cool. Love it. There's another one, I can't remember the terminology for it, but it's being attracted to talent and I was like, huh, I get that. Yeah, I can see that. . 

So given that kind of realization and not knowing the language, what was, what was it like to then kind of develop your own language and identity for yourself as you grew older?

Katelynn: I would, like, I would self-describe myself as a tomboy to like, substitute instead of lesbian. Oh, I'm a tomboy. And the time I was dating you know, I was in high school, so I was dating boys. when I was in college. Oh, I'm just an athlete, so that's why I dress a certain way. And then like when I really did some deep digging into myself and some reflection of myself, it's, oh, really? I was just using that as a shield for my real identity as a lesbian.

I clung to something that the street community accepted as "okay." And then once I finally had that bomb drop, I realized I was a lesbian. That's when I shifted that tomboy identity to [00:06:00] that lesbian identity. 

Host: I think it's so funny because I was just used to joke about the fact that like, I think in the nineties as a teenager it was like, oh, I'm straight. \Oh, I'm bisexual. Bisexual. Hey, I'm gay. Congratulations. Like, you get that middle ground. And so I think so many of us, especially because the language hadn't developed really at the time, Identified in all these different categories and just didn't talk about the other part of it. 

Katelynn: Yes. 

Host: So I feel that as I'm an artist. I was a band kid, a choir kid, and a theater kid, and so I was just an artist. And so even though I'm not innately effeminate I have more eccentricities than most people. And so I just attributed it for a while to being artistic, you know? Yeah. And it's that trope, that stereotypical trope of what is a, you know, a theater kid is that weird kid. And the band kid is over-sexualized. Like all these things that we've seen play out in movies over the years. And so we kind of like, [00:07:00] I'll just put myself in this box until I understand what box I'm actually in. 

Katelynn: Yes. For the longest time I put myself in a softball box. It's like, Ooh, that tracks really well during teaching pe check off their stereotype, you know?

But no, I do, we cling to social norms. It's kinda like a gateway into allowing ourselves to like accept who we are. 

Host: Yeah, absolutely. So how do you think your experience has informed you as a queer educator? 

Katelynn: For me, so when I was growing up and having these self doubts, I wanted to, I wanted validation somewhere for how I was feeling. I didn't see a whole lot of successful queer adults, they were demonized. They were, you know, that people would call 'em the F word. They would use these slurs against them. They were seen as like othered or gross.

So like for me, as an educator, I find myself in a position where I can [00:08:00] exemplify or be a role model for a successful queer. I don't, so, and this is an audio medium, but for me, I present as more androgynous. I have short hair. My clothes would be more stereotyped as masculine. I present more masculine.

Or for me, I can also show my students that to be a female, to be a woman. It's not just skirts and heels and long hair and. There is a spectrum of what a woman is. Mm-hmm.  

Host: Absolutely. 

Katelynn: That what you look like doesn't identify who you are, is who are on the inside, is who you are. So I strive to be a role model for my students that might be questioning themselves or might be that they can see themselves reflected back.

Host: And what has your experience been like as a queer ed educator, either with your staff or administration? 

Katelynn: So I'm in Missouri and we're a hot mess. Not gonna lie, . But I really consider myself extremely fortunate. So with my district, [00:09:00] I have, I personally haven't felt any negativity about how I present myself or my sexual orientation.

My staff has been phenomenal since I got hired. . I've had a couple hiccups with, you know, every once in a while, but in general it's been amazing. I have a lot of allies in the building. I have a lot of advocates who, you know, maybe a student says something that they don't mean, but you know, maybe they heard it at home and I'll ask, you know, a colleague, Hey, what do you think?

And I feel like I can be open with those conversations with my colleagues. I haven't had, I I mean, no parents have approached me with any issues. If they have 'em, that's their problem, but they haven't approached me with any issues. My students, when they hear that I'm married to another woman, they're curious.

When I got engaged, I remember I had this conversation with my assistant principal. I said, Hey what do I respond? How do I respond to the kids when they ask why I'm wearing a ring? Like, what's the policy? Am I allowed to say. My fiance and if they ask who it is to say they're a woman, like, [00:10:00] is that okay?

Do I get in trouble? My wife's name is gender neutral. So I could get away with saying, oh, my fiance's name is Sam, you know, like I could slide by with that. And my assistant principal said, no, you do whatever you feel is best. And she said, you don't have to hide who you are. We'll support you no matter what.

And, but that's been my experience and I am very fortunate, especially considering. , the area of St. Louis. I'm in . I said I've been very fortunate. I'm a little spoiled here. 

Host: That's wonderful. I think it's fantastic. But also at the same time, one of the thing that, that I personally struggle with is the fact that we have to ask those questions.

Katelynn: Yes. 

Host: When I started at my current campus, this is the second school I've ever taught at. I didn't have great experiences at my first school when I came to like, support from the administration on certain things. And so when I came into my new job, I was like, okay. Looking around, people are setting up their classrooms.

I'm with my teaching partner and I turned to her and I was like, you see that on the wall? Like [00:11:00] how she has her whole family up there and pictures of her with her husband, you know, at their wedding. Like I never, I could never do that. And then she forced me to put them up in my room, . She was like, you absolutely need to do that.

Katelynn: She's a keeper. 

Host: Yeah, I was like when I won the lottery of teaching partners, because I was so self-conscious. Even I had an experience at my previous school where like the, my first principal was like, maybe you shouldn't come out so quickly. And so then I realized maybe two years later that I stopped putting my family in my About me introduction thing.

And I think it was subconscious because I was like rushing to do it. .

Katelynn: Yeah. 

Host: Cuz they don't give enough prep time for things at the start of a school year. But I went and looked back at them over the years and was like, wow, I completely started omitting my family and then I put them back in because subconsciously I had taken what he had said [00:12:00] to heart and I was also like rushing. So it's interesting the fact that we live in this kind of world where there are a different set of rules and we have to ask if it's okay. 

Katelynn: Yeah. Or even like subconsciously. I had the same conundrum with pictures of my family. My, like my co-teacher, her and I have a great relationship, but at the beginning of the year, she does like a little about me slide.

We project it in the gym and she has a picture of her and her boys, and her dog and a little about me. And I always hesitate, even though like I know that like my administration has my back, I always hesitate like, Ooh, do I wanna put like our picture up there with our cats? But yeah, even that, just some subconscious stuff working through that. Absolutely.

Host: I know you teach younger kids, but have you had the experience of working with any queer students? 

Katelynn: Yes. This year two kids came out to me. One identifies as trans, the only identifies as non-binary. It's been I've, I'm not gonna, I've made a lot of mistakes on the path because I have known [00:13:00] those kids for a while and I've associated one kid with being female for five years.

So I've definitely had to do some deep dives into how I interact with a student. Am I honoring their identity? Am I supporting them in class? 

There have been some tricky spots with some other kids, misgendering them and, also that student not really being completely out to their peers and just, it's been a tricky year, but also a learning year for me.

On how I can better be there for my kids and have them help them feel seen and validated in my space. 

Host: Absolutely. I think it's so interesting for those of us who teach more of the elective classes, because we do have this multi-year experience with our students. Whereas in an elementary setting, you're gonna have this student maybe one year, maybe two.

Katelynn: Yeah. 

Host: And when you get to secondary, it's usually gonna be a one year process unless you teach one of those electives. And so we do get to know this person and kind of have to go through the similar processes, not the same, [00:14:00] but similar processes as parents, because we've known these kids for a long time.

. What do you do when you find yourself having misgendered a child? 

Katelynn: The students bless their hearts, they absolutely call me out as they should. Mrs. H G, that's not who I am. It's oh, you're right. I'm so sorry. Thank you for correcting me. But I do, I make sure that if I misgender them or misidentify them in front of their peers, that I correct myself in front of their peers also because I also need to demonstrate what it's like when one of their peers misgenders them, how they should interact. But no they're very open with me when I slip up and I apologize immediately. And it's, like I said, it's something I need to work on. It's not a them, it's a me issue. Not so much issue really more of just a learning curve for me. 

Host: Yeah, that's a memory thing. I had an instance happening earlier this year where I had like literally only known this child as the name they asked me to call them. But attendance records, right? For schools use birth names. And so we are stuck looking at a list of students and [00:15:00] constantly seeing this name, even if we never call it to them.

And like after months we will have used the wrong name. And I'm like, I am so sorry. I don't even know why that's in my head. I've never called you that before. And I mean, the great thing is The students are understanding, but I also make a big deal, like you said, of correcting myself in front of people and making sure that like, that, that's the culture we have is apologize and change.

Katelynn: Yes. 

Host: Not just brush it off.

Katelynn: Yes. Yeah. Reflection and growth. Absolutely. 

Host: Reflection and growth. Indeed. So, Have you had any experiences where you've had students who maybe don't support the LGBTQ community? You mentioned something earlier about students maybe having learned something at home. 

Katelynn: Yeah. I've had kids like blurt out that's so gay, stuff like that. On the playground maybe in my space, and we're playing a game and I try to call that that to attention. I'll bring the kid [00:16:00] over, say like, why did you say that's so gay? Well, he did this well, but why did you say that's so gay when he did this? So like, I'll try to investigate why a child is associating something negative with gay.

And it's usually they hear it online, they hear it on TikTok, they hear it maybe at home, and we try to investigate why. And okay, let's find a different word. , I've heard kids just not understand what gay meant. They think gay is weird. Then we, you know, have a different type of discussion. I haven't really had a child use gay knowingly and as an insult, like as a direct Oh, you like the same gender kind of insular, a slur like that. It's more of saying someone is less than which we can unpack also. Sure. And we do unpack I've heard someone say, well, look, we're lesbians. We like girls. Like, well, that's not how that works. Let's have a conversation.

You're a boy. Like, no, you're just saying that to be silly. 

Host: Yeah. 

Katelynn: We're gonna use different words. 

Host: I'm glad you knew what the word means, but let's use it in the right context. 

Katelynn: Yes, [00:17:00] absolutely. 

Host: Yeah. I think it's interesting at that time, because I have an eight year old and I'm kind of watching just social things get, and I'm assuming that you deal with this a lot. But I've never taught elementary so I don't really know the genderfication of activities and things like, oh, you can't do that because you're a boy and you can't do that because you're a girl. Have you experienced stuff like that in your educational background? 

Katelynn: Yes. So I play women's professional tackle football.

Host: Oh, wow. 

Katelynn: And oh, I love it. 

Host: That's awesome. 

Katelynn: It's like free therapy. 

Host: I love how you just like casually drop that in, no big deal. 

Katelynn: But we've had discussions like, yes, girls can play football. Yes, girls can play sports. Yes. Girls can also kick butt. No, the WNBA isn't a joke. They're just underfunded.

 We tried to get rid of the gender in sports and just focus on sport is sport. Sport is there for enjoyment, [00:18:00] it's there for competitions for personal growth. There should not be a gender associated with sports cuz anyone could do any sport. 

Host: I agree with that entirely and it's so interesting to listen to my daughter say oh yeah, we played football today and it would've been not a thing, you know, when I was younger. . 

Katelynn: Yes. Yeah, we have great discussions and you know, one of the kids bring up, oh, did you see you know, this game of the night? Will said, well, did you see this game also, you know, I'll try to bring up and say, oh, well this person the best athlete ever. Well, I I don't know Serena Williams.

She's pretty phenomenal too. So, we'll try to like, find equal discussions with men and women in sport. 

Host: That's awesome. That got me thinking about something, but it has just slipped my mind. Sports. Alright, it's going, we're gonna move on.

Katelynn: So we do sometimes bring up, we've had discussions on trans athletes.

Host: Oh, wow. 

Katelynn: And that's been a tricky discussion. Usually fifth graders bring it up. Something will hit the news. [00:19:00] And, you know, we'll do warmups and they'll just come up to me and ask, you know, Hey, what do you think about this example? And we try to bring it back to what the situations they're bringing up are about kids in sport. And I don't know about Texas, where you're at, but in Missouri they're working on some legal, law making, somewhat like banning trans men or trans women in women's sports. We'll talk about it being kids. Kids playing sports. You know, 

Host: yeah. 

Katelynn: This person's a child. Let them play.

Host: Well, I mean, if sports is for any gender, if we can, I've literally seen women, young women on the football teams here in Texas, which is huge because Texas is huge about football.

Katelynn: Yes, it's culture.

Host: It is a big part of the culture. And so to have young women playing on these teams, if young women can play on these teams, what does it matter? 

Katelynn: Yes, exactly. I mean, when I play football, we play against trans women also. And [00:20:00] we'll destroy them just as we destroy the person next to 'em, you know, doesn't matter who's wind up against us. You're still our competition.

Host: 100%. I find it so interesting because here in Texas there are still some things that are like gendered when it comes to sports, which is really weird for me. One is volleyball, like women play volleyball. But we have we have men and women doing wrestling teams.

Katelynn: Yeah. 

Host: And I was just like, men can't play volleyball. Like, what's up?

Katelynn: Oh, that drives me. Yeah, some, I mean, I've been through some amazing men's volleyball games. And they are just as enjoyable men can do 'em. They're just capable. 

Host: Yeah. It's such an interesting thing to be so specific about.

Katelynn: Yes. 

Host: So let's talk a little bit about why you chose to get into education because it is definitely a labor of love.

Katelynn: It is. I had some phenomenal teachers growing up. Teachers that believed in me. Okay. I was a really shy, quiet, like sat in the back of the room, never raised my hand, never spoke out kind of kid. I was very anxious. I didn't have a [00:21:00] whole lot of friends, but like my teachers tried so hard to make me feel loved and included.

And I just I wanted to be that person for someone else. So I used to actually hate pe. I had some real jerks for PE teachers when I was itty bitty. And I remember loving the class itself. I loved playing games, I loved competition, I loved sport. I loved being active, but because I wasn't a top athlete in my class I felt like I, I dunno, I just, I felt a certain kind of way about my teachers.

It wasn't until I was in high school. Where I had a weightlifting coach, I took weightlifting because I didn't wanna take PE cuz I had pe. That's how you get around that . But I had this weightlifting coach and he inspired me. Like he was just so kind to me. I was one of only two girls in the class and he would cheer me on.

He made, like, he'd say, you know, thanks for coming today. I'm glad you're here. Let's go see what you can do today. But it's just like, I just felt so encouraged and so. and I remember [00:22:00] like how that made me feel about a subject that I hated. All of a sudden I loved and I wanted to be that person for a kid who might have a similar experience with as me.

 You know, I wanted to be that positive person and it create that positive PE experience. 

Host: That's awesome. I think that is so interesting as well, because teachers can be so impactful on your interest in a subject as a student. 

Katelynn: Yes.

Host: Like I remember that having a really phenomenal eighth grade history teacher and then just loving history after that. And if it wasn't for her I don't even know that I'd be where I am because I initially thought I was gonna be a social studies teacher when I decided to go into teaching. So here we are. But I think it's so interesting how in your experience the teachers made you feel, you know, like you didn't like the environment, you just loved the content.

Katelynn: Yes.

Host: And so I think it's so cool that [00:23:00] later on you were able to connect with just loving that so much that you wanted to bring that environment and tie it in with the content for students in the future. So that's pretty phenomenal because sometimes those bad teachers can debilitating. They really can. 

Katelynn: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. I was all, I'm also a former band nerd, such as yourself. Yeah. We're a type that's for sure. Uhhuh . But you know, like for me, marching band was also one of the best experiences I've ever had in my life. I still have my french horn.

. I still have those memories. I still like, you know, if I hear marching band practice, my heart still like skips a beat. I still. That energy and it's, and honestly it's because of the teachers I had. It's wild how great teachers can give us these lasting memories and these lasting identifiers we have in ourselves.

Host: Absolutely. So we're getting towards the end of our interview, I have two questions for you to kind of wrap things up. . The first one is what advice would you give to a new teacher who may not know [00:24:00] whether they should be their authentic self in their classroom?

Katelynn: To me it's find your people. Every building is gonna have someone who is gonna be an ally or at least has an open heart and is willing to listen. . For me, once you have your people, once you have your allies and you can identify that's your support maybe you have. , an ignorant parent or an ignorant situation or just an uncomfortable situation.

You wanna just talk or scheme or something. Finding your people in your building are gonna have your back who are sounding boards. You can vent or cry or whatever to finding your people, honestly, for me is the first step. And then, you know, as you gain more people in your corner, . That's how you change the school climate.

That's how you get more comfortable with being who you are and representing yourself to the staff. You gotta find your people. They're gonna give you your confidence. 

Host: I agree. And I think that honestly, that advice could go to anybody. Whether you are talking about [00:25:00] being your authentic self in the classroom or going into a classroom for the first year. That first year can be real lonely. And so make sure that you find your people. Cuz I think that is incredibly important. And it's one of the things that got me to continue was once I finally found my people, I was like, oh, I enjoy my job.

Katelynn: Yes. 

Host: I'm not just absolutely a slave to work or I'm just not just a glutton for punishment, I guess. Constantly working.

Katelynn: They make it fun, right? 

Host: I had interactions, I had other adults that I can talk with and bounce ideas off of, but also just like sometimes you need someone to vent to who understand. 

Katelynn: Yes. 

Host: And then for my final question, as LBTQIA+ adults or even our allies, how can we help move the needle in public education towards inclusivity? There are a lot of laws being thrown around over several states in the US right now. So what are some things that you can think of based off of your experience in Missouri? 

Katelynn: Honestly, the first one is get out and vote. [00:26:00] Get educated. Know what's happening in your local elections. Vote in your local elections. Look who's in your School Board. School Boards have so much say in how we run our lives in education, how we represent ourselves educationally. Know your board members, who is gonna support you, who is a butthead. Get involved in your union cuz they're also going to support you. 

When I look at more building for me, just being myself being my authentic self, if you're able to safely in your building, just being visible, is going to give kids more confidence. Once kids have a positive association with the queer community, they're going to grow up to be more open-minded adults who aren't gonna pass harmful legislation, who aren't going to say harmful things, who aren't going to be toxic.

So being a role model for kids who are questioning themselves or maybe figuring some things out and just giving those kids just so much care and love and support so they can be the. Honestly, that's how you change everything. Kids gotta have that [00:27:00] positive role model. They have to see themselves reflected in adults. See themselves as successful adults that are queer.

 We need more queer educators that are out who are proud. Post up signs in your classroom. I've got Pride Flag Bunting in my office. I have a Rainbow lanyard. I have a Black Lives Matter sign in my office cuz I want my kids to feel suported. . I want my kids who maybe don't have a queer adult in their life to see queer representation knowing that we are here for you if you do question yourself.

Host: I agree with that a hundred percent. I think that it would've been game changing for us as it as people in the nineties growing up to have just a knowledge that queer people existed beyond some stereotypes. I think. for you and I'm guessing because of the timeline, we're about the same age, and so my only references were Jack and Will from Will and Grace . 

Katelynn: Yep. 

Host: And then yours were probably, you know, Ellen. 

Katelynn: Ellen DeGeneres.

Host: And Rosie O'Donnell. 

Katelynn: [00:28:00] Nailed it! 

Host: That was it. That's, that was our available representation. And, and so I think that representation is so important andi encourageI e. All you all who are out there, who are considering being an educator, but maybe worried about being a queer educator, do it because we need you. The kids need you. And I'm not gonna say that it's gonna be easy. Every location is gonna be different, but find your space and find your people, as you just mentioned. 

Katelynn: Absolutely. 

Host: Thank you so much for joining me today. I've really gotten well, really enjoyed getting to know you. And, and I hope you have a great rest of your day.

Katelynn: Thank you so much, Bryan. It's been so much fun. Thanks for having me on. 

Host: It was my pleasure indeed. And thank you all for joining us on this episode of Teaching While Queer.

Outro: Thank you for joining me for this week's episode of Teaching While Queer. If you haven't done so already, please consider subscribing on your favorite RSS feed and sharing the podcast with your friends and [00:29:00] family. New episodes will come out every other week during the school year. If you're interested in joining us on this Teaching While Queer Podcast, Please email us at teachingwhilequeerpodcast@ gmail.com.

Have a great day.