Feb. 11, 2026

091: How Shifts In Perspective Can Transform Learning And Leadership with Thom Stecher

091: How Shifts In Perspective Can Transform Learning And Leadership with Thom Stecher
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What if the biggest lever for healthier schools is how we view people and problems? I sit down with veteran educator and consultant Thom Stecher to unpack how a shift in perspective can transform classroom climate, leadership choices, and our well-being. From the first moments, we trace a clear arc: perception shapes understanding, understanding unlocks empathy, and empathy fuels compassionate action. And that sequence lives inside every SEL competency.

Thom shares personal stories that bring both-and thinking to life, showing how grief and gratitude can coexist and how that nuance matters for students and staff navigating complex emotions. We dig into responsible decision-making as the cumulative outcome of self-awareness, self-management, social awareness, and relationship skills, then get practical: using a mindful pause to interrupt reactivity, spotting absolutist language that signals stuck thinking, and replacing it with I-statements that restore agency. We also explore cognitive empathy versus affective empathy and why honoring different truths in a classroom builds respect without demanding conversion.

Curiosity gets its due as the engine of empathy and innovation, raising a tough question for schools: Do we actually want curiosity if it refuses to be compliant? Drawing on the original meaning of educare (to draw out), we offer strategies to elevate student voice, invite multiple perspectives, and design learning that values people over mere performance.

If you’re ready to trade either-or for both-and, to ground big goals in human connection, and to build a culture where perspective leads to wiser choices, this conversation will give you language, tools, and courage to start. 

If it resonates, follow the show, share it with a colleague, and leave a quick review to help others find it. 

What’s one place you’ll add a mindful pause this week?

EPISODE RESOURCES:

00:03 - Season Five Setup & Theme

00:48 - Meet Tom Stecker & People-Centered Schools

02:05 - The Four Ps Spark: Perspective First

03:15 - Perspective Across SEL Competencies

06:20 - From Perception To Choice And Outcomes

09:28 - Foundations Of Responsible Decisions

12:28 - Mindset, Limits, And Hope

15:52 - Both-And Thinking Amid Grief

19:06 - Emotional Literacy And Complexity

22:29 - Mindfulness And The Power Of Pause

24:44 - Identity Threats And Change Readiness

27:38 - Cognitive Vs Affective Empathy

31:05 - Classroom Space For Many Truths

34:23 - Health Signals And Limiting Language

38:08 - Hope: Waypower And Willpower

41:16 - Head First Or Behavior First

WEBVTT

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Welcome to season five of SEL in EDU.

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This is a space for educators who believe social emotional learning isn't an add-on.

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It's part of how we teach, lead, and show up every day.

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I'm Dr.

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Krista Lay, and in each episode, we'll explore real stories, practical strategies, and the human side of learning that helps schools grow with intention.

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Perspective is a powerful thing.

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It shapes how we interpret student behavior, how we respond to challenges, and how we decide what truly matters in education.

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Sometimes a small shift in how we see a situation can completely change how we support the people in front of us.

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In today's episode, I'm joined by Tom Stecker, an educator and consultant who has spent more than 40 years helping schools step back and reconsider their lens.

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As one of the original developers of the nationally recognized student assistance program model, Tom has worked with students, educators, administrators, and school boards across the country, always returning to one central belief that education works best when we keep people at the center.

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Our conversation explores how perspective influences school culture, decision making, and the balance between academic outcomes and human connection.

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Tom reminds us that when we shift how we see students and staff, we often shift what becomes possible for them.

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I grish that.

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Hello, Tom.

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I'm so excited that we have a chance to record because we're calling these couple episodes SEL in EDU to be continued.

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We had this amazing conversation a couple weeks ago and it would have been great for the podcast.

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So we're circling back around again and talking about perception, possibilities, and purpose.

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15 years ago, I was asked by an assistant superintendent in a school district, would you do a keynote for us?

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I said, sure, happy to do that.

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Back to school kind of thing, motivational.

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And I said, What would you like the topic to be?

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He said, Well, do anything you want.

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It's wonderfully empowering and really challenging.

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Most of my thoughts were around wellness of the staff.

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However, driving to the event that early morning, this idea comes to me.

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The voice in my head says, talk about perspective, possibilities, purpose, and passion.

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The rest of the drive, I'm formulating what I'm going to say.

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You know that I always arrive places early.

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I get there early and I'm jotting down notes in the parking lot, little scribbles.

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And that's what I went with, and it was wonderful.

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I kept working with that, and that brings us to today.

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We're going to start with perspective and what that means.

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And I realized in my notes that I wrote perception, but they are similar.

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They're the same root word.

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Perspective is one of the skills under social awareness.

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And I think it's important to think about we can also have perspective on ourselves.

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So I do think it can be under self-awareness as well.

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Yes.

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If we have a strong perspective and the ability to take perspective, we're able to achieve.

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So many things begin with perception.

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Perspective leads to um understanding, leads to empathy, leads to compassion.

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When you say that perspective is part of social awareness, correct?

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Yes.

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Absolutely.

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Our perspective is our worldview.

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How do I see this diverse uh society that I live in, this world society?

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That's critically important.

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Self-awareness.

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I need to have a perspective on myself.

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You do work on yourself every day.

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I do work on myself every day.

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Most of the books I read, the first series of notes I make are about me.

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What's the author saying to me so that I can grow and learn more?

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Every morning I do many things in my meditation practice, but one of the things I do, I read a passage from the Enneagram every day about my type and what I need to do today to be the best version of myself.

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I think perspective goes all the way to responsible decision making.

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Tell me more about that one.

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So responsible decision making, as I drill down into that, it's about making choices.

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To make a healthy choice, I have to have a balanced, healthy perspective.

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Yeah.

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And so many of my role models have taught me that.

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I think we probably could dig deep enough, and I'll ask our listeners to think about this.

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Maybe perspective is a part of every competency in social emotional learning.

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I also feel that whole responsible decision-making category.

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While I understand its purpose, it's a complex set of skills that really deserve their own time to be broken down into micro moves.

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We have the skills under the other competencies.

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I feel like here's the skill, and then what are you doing with it?

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Yeah.

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Where responsible decision making comes in.

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One of the pieces that really hit me as I was looking at it is that our experiences, our emotions, our beliefs shape how we perceive the world.

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Our perception is how we make meaning of information coming down and how we interpret it.

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It reminds me similarly to when we look at emotions, that your emotions are innate things that come up in your body, but your feelings are how you interpret those emotions.

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Social emotional learning gives you that space between the innate and those experiences and the interpretation.

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Frankel talks about that.

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Stephen Covey talks about that.

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It's that one ten thousandth of a second from some event, some experience, to how am I expressing my feelings?

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What am I sharing?

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I have this emotion, it's probably bodily.

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There's a feeling aspect.

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Now what do I do with that?

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That's where choice comes in.

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Stimulus response.

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One of my favorite formulas is events plus response equals the outcome, which is from Jack Canfield.

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One of the things that's always interested me with responsible decision making.

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I think it's a cumulative thing.

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So self-awareness, we have to start there.

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And that moves us to self-management, then social awareness and relationship skills.

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Relationship skills deeper dig under social awareness, really making a vulnerable, more intimate, trusting commitment.

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I cannot be a good responsible decision maker with some level of awareness and expertise in the previous four.

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Think our world right now is abundant with poor, responsible decision makers.

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Because they're lacking those critical foundational skills.

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Exactly.

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Self-management, self-awareness is not there.

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People lack of caring for each other, social awareness.

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So that's always kind of moved me, that idea.

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When you were talking about leaders, that linked to something I had not considered before in some of the research, how does lack of perspective influence our behaviors?

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And that could be a good or a bad thing, but the two pieces that came up that really intrigued me was Harold Web's work around a growth mindset.

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Okay.

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If our perspective, how we interpret a challenge based on what's happened in the past or how we see effort that we put forward as either being failure or growth.

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Our past experiences, if how we look at things, our perspective is either, and there's a bit of hope in here.

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If I do this, here's what's possible.

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And that's why we're going to talk about possibilities in the next one.

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My past experience shapes my perspective that I don't have agency.

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You mentioned two things that really resonate with me.

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The first is hope.

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Please, let's come back to that.

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I think it's important.

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And there's a lot of people writing and researching around hope right now.

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The other piece are these limiting beliefs.

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We always have a choice.

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In the worst possible situations in our life, we have a choice.

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That brings me back to Han Selyer's work with stress management and the whole stress cycle.

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We have this thing happens, you know, blank happens.

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The first step is my assessment of that.

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I saw it in my own children growing up.

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I had one child who the X could happen, and it would be a major emotional event.

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And I had another child, the same exact thing could happen, and no reaction at all.

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So our assessment, we have so much power in that.

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Folks are not aware, and I honor and respect everybody who's gone through challenge.

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As you know, the greatest challenge of my life has been the death of our daughter.

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And in that moment of saying our final goodbye, coupled with the tremendous grief, there's also this transformational experience, this spiritual experience, this one with the universe experience.

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I don't share that often, but Susan Kane's book, Bittersweet, really sums it up beautifully.

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There's an assessment.

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Who do I want to be right now?

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What do I want to do right now?

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Do I want to blame and lash out?

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No.

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I don't.

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To honor my daughter, who was not that kind of person.

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She was unconditional love.

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So I want to emulate that.

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Those choice moments in our life.

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I would love people to dig deeper and explore how important and powerful those choice moments are.

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They happen all the time.

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And I think in hearing what you're sharing, thank you for sharing that moment where both things were happening at the same time.

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Yes.

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There was grief and something bigger.

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Yes.

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Our choice can be to accept both at the same time.

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Krista, what you're sharing right now, I think, is critically important.

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We actually are more innately both and than we are either or.

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The either-or comes from societal structuring that has been imposed upon us.

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We need to reclaim that both and.

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We see the both and in the innocent child all the time.

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Both feelings are expressed.

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Society tries to box us.

00:11:59.360 --> 00:12:06.480
So you bring up an interesting piece about complex emotions and how they're uncomfortable.

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Oftentimes in schools, we're talking about building emotional literacy with our students, having them move beyond those core five innate emotions, and exploring the beauty that is the feelings, which often combines those emotions together.

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I'm wondering if some of that is because we're not comfortable sitting in those more complex emotions, and it's easier to just pick something that's more I'm mad, I'm sad, instead of exploring that further, because perspective taking does ask that you go beyond what you're comfortable with, what you feel you already know.

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Yep.

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That moment where we take a breath, where we pause, you're really talking about mindfulness.

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Mindfulness is not only sitting on my floor meditating.

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Mindfulness is taking those moments, taking that pause and say, wait a minute.

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And I don't have to act, I don't have to respond.

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It's okay to sit with this.

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We're applauded to drive, drive, drive.

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Wait a minute.

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Human being, not human doing.

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I just need to be here for a little while.

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So many of the great teachers have talked about that.

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We don't always have to do something.

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It's easier to walk away from a computer.

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You feel a pressure to respond right away, but that's us putting that on ourselves.

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I need a couple minutes to rethink this or to have a pause and collect my thoughts.

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It hits on something else around people's willingness to change, the flexibility, the adaptability based on perception.

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If they feel that their identity is being threatened in some way, they're not seeing here's an alternative strategy or here's a different path.

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They're hearing what I'm doing isn't good enough.

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So much in there.

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The idea of educators through professional development helping their students understand the things we're talking about right now.

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That's growth.

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As we grow and change, our perception expands, which is something that both of us love.

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You know, that's why we keep reading, that's why we keep researching.

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And every interaction we have, there's an opportunity.

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That brings us to the whole social awareness piece.

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You are a traveler, you and your husband love to travel.

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That has been proven to expand our perception, to expand our social awareness, respect for life, and developing empathy.

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Oh, so yeah, I'm so glad you brought up empathy because a book called Stoic Empathy talks about two different types of empathy.

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She describes it as cognitive empathy and affective empathy.

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Okay.

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Affective empathy is the compassion, the acting on something.

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And she describes cognitive empathy as the logic behind it.

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Like you understand why somebody's doing something.

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And she actually says, is perspective taking.

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So I know you and I have done lots of research around empathy and different people's perspectives at logical empathy.

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Maybe you're not feeling, but you can understand why they're feeling that way or why they're doing what they're doing.

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Fascinating.

00:16:07.840 --> 00:16:09.600
You mentioned understanding twice.

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There's helping our students understand, and first the adults in PD, this idea of perception, it's not a hard and fast this equals this.

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It's a continuum.

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Our perception leads us to understanding.

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As that understanding develops, my empathy expands.

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And then, of course, where we take action, there's compassion.

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I'm pretty sure in Brene Brown's newest book, she mentions those two concepts: the cognitive empathy and the affective empathy.

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That was new to me.

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Cognitive empathy is understanding.

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Yes.

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It's seeing somebody else's viewpoint.

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Yeah.

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Or the idea that they have a different viewpoint that's valid.

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Sometimes I might not understand where somebody's coming from, but I understand that's their truth.

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And I'm okay with it because mine is different.

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Think about how empowering that statement is when we bring it as a lesson to our students.

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This person over here and this student over here, we have different perspectives.

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Let's talk about that.

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Let's really help each other see what that is, to at least come to that place of cognitive empathy.

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Then, if there's an affected empathy, that's kind of like ice cream on the cake.

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That goes back to your point about in the classroom within a learning experience, we're making space for the both and in discussions, in conversations.

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Oftentimes it seems that we feel we need to get somebody to change their mind to get perspective.

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I don't think somebody has to change their mind to have perspective.

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And maybe that needs to be a goal for our learning experiences, for our classrooms, for our workshops, that there is space for both.

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That's transformational education.

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If we can have our friends who are listening now talk to each other, talk to you and I about that possibility.

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I really think it's transformation.

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These are relatively new ideas to bring into the classroom.

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Where we're speaking here, I'm seeing the opposing forces.

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And there's a beautiful few lines by Rumi, one of my favorite poets.

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Out beyond doing and wrongdoing, there's a field.

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I'll meet you there.

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That's honoring both places.

00:18:33.759 --> 00:18:37.920
And finding that middle ground, you know, very Buddhist concept.

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I'll find that middle ground.

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I don't have to agree with you.

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I just need to live with you.

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Yes.

00:18:44.160 --> 00:18:48.480
It reminds me of a conversation I had with my sister a couple weeks ago.

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She's like, here's why I think this, here's why.

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And I'm like, I get it.

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I do.

00:18:54.720 --> 00:18:57.119
But I would not have done the same thing.

00:18:57.279 --> 00:18:58.720
I live in a different path.

00:18:58.880 --> 00:19:09.519
I'm not saying that I just can't get behind your path, but I understand all the experiences, the emotions, your lived history until that point.

00:19:09.680 --> 00:19:09.839
Yeah.

00:19:10.079 --> 00:19:11.839
And mine brought me somewhere else.

00:19:12.160 --> 00:19:14.319
It is okay for both parties.

00:19:14.880 --> 00:19:16.400
And can we honor that?

00:19:16.559 --> 00:19:23.359
If that brought your sister a level of health, a level of joy, a level of comfort with who she is, great.

00:19:23.599 --> 00:19:24.240
Perfect.

00:19:24.480 --> 00:19:28.240
What you're talking about now brings me to one of the latter prompts.

00:19:28.400 --> 00:19:35.279
You asked, what signals tell you someone's perception is limiting rather than expanding then?

00:19:35.440 --> 00:19:36.799
It's our health.

00:19:37.119 --> 00:19:43.119
Our bodies and minds and our emotions have been proven to be interconnected.

00:19:43.279 --> 00:19:44.480
There is no separate.

00:19:44.640 --> 00:19:46.319
So I'm checking my health.

00:19:46.400 --> 00:19:50.079
I'm checking the basics, blood pressure, heart rate.

00:19:50.319 --> 00:19:52.240
Are they in that nice healthy range?

00:19:52.400 --> 00:19:54.240
If they're not, there's a clue.

00:19:54.400 --> 00:19:55.680
Something's going on.

00:19:56.000 --> 00:20:00.799
My perception, my attitude leads to this larger world view.

00:20:01.119 --> 00:20:03.920
And the questions are simple.

00:20:04.160 --> 00:20:05.759
Am I happy with my life?

00:20:06.000 --> 00:20:07.839
Am I happy with myself?

00:20:08.079 --> 00:20:08.480
Yeah.

00:20:08.720 --> 00:20:12.079
At this point in my life, my answer is yes, and I'm so grateful.

00:20:12.240 --> 00:20:14.079
It just brings on more good.

00:20:14.240 --> 00:20:18.000
I'm full of joy because I've done this work.

00:20:18.400 --> 00:20:21.759
I continue to do this work because it never ends.

00:20:22.160 --> 00:20:23.200
I like that.

00:20:23.359 --> 00:20:26.480
That makes me happy that it never ends.

00:20:27.440 --> 00:20:34.000
And you brought up gratitude, which is a skill within social awareness, making more of this network of connections.

00:20:34.240 --> 00:20:37.759
And I think the health part, you're spot on.

00:20:37.839 --> 00:20:43.440
And I love that you started there because I immediately go to the thinking process and behaviors.

00:20:43.680 --> 00:20:49.759
I don't always think about the health part, but then that's how sometimes we need to listen because that's where it's manifested.

00:20:49.839 --> 00:20:50.079
Yeah.

00:20:50.160 --> 00:20:50.319
Yeah.

00:20:50.559 --> 00:20:58.079
When people have this language that's well, it never goes this way, or everybody thinks this.

00:20:58.240 --> 00:21:08.720
And as soon as somebody speaks in this absolutist language, I'm like covering for something, like you have a perspective, you're holding on to feeling the same way.

00:21:08.880 --> 00:21:11.200
It goes back to the idea they don't have a choice.

00:21:11.440 --> 00:21:11.839
Yeah.

00:21:12.160 --> 00:21:17.440
When folks in my world make those big global statements, that turns me off as well.

00:21:17.680 --> 00:21:23.440
However, I remember my really great teachers and therapists back in my 20s.

00:21:23.680 --> 00:21:32.079
If I would make a statement like that, or in a group therapy session, someone else would make a statement like that, they would simply say, turn that into an I statement, please.

00:21:32.400 --> 00:21:33.440
Oh, I love that response.

00:21:33.680 --> 00:21:34.079
There it is.

00:21:34.160 --> 00:21:34.480
Boom.

00:21:34.559 --> 00:21:35.920
There's the responsibility.

00:21:36.079 --> 00:21:37.599
And I really can't act.

00:21:37.920 --> 00:21:40.079
Responsible decision making.

00:21:40.240 --> 00:21:47.519
I cannot act until I've gone through all these previous competencies.

00:21:47.839 --> 00:21:55.839
When we use that type of language, we're actually cutting away part of the validity of what you're sharing.

00:21:55.920 --> 00:21:58.000
And you might have had a really good point.

00:21:58.640 --> 00:21:59.759
I think that kind of language.

00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:01.680
Which disempowers us.

00:22:02.000 --> 00:22:03.519
Share more about that.

00:22:04.319 --> 00:22:09.680
When I talk in generalities, I'm not owning anything.

00:22:10.079 --> 00:22:12.000
I think I am disempowering myself.

00:22:12.160 --> 00:22:13.440
Ownership is power.

00:22:13.680 --> 00:22:16.319
I don't mean power over, I mean to be empowered.

00:22:16.640 --> 00:22:23.440
Let's go back to this idea of hope because your friend of mine researches hope, Nico Salmatolides.

00:22:24.000 --> 00:22:30.079
The piece that resonated with me that he talks about with hope is that there's power and willpower.

00:22:30.319 --> 00:22:31.759
Do you see a path?

00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:33.759
Do you see that there are options?

00:22:33.920 --> 00:22:39.200
Do you believe in yourself and your ability to go down that path?

00:22:40.000 --> 00:22:42.799
Do you believe if you don't, you're not empowering yourself.

00:22:42.880 --> 00:22:47.279
You're not giving yourself that sense of efficacy that you can be successful.

00:22:47.599 --> 00:22:49.359
So these are new concepts to me.

00:22:49.599 --> 00:22:52.319
Way power, that's the vision.

00:22:52.480 --> 00:22:53.599
That's what I see.

00:22:53.680 --> 00:22:56.400
That's my possible choice or choices.

00:22:56.480 --> 00:22:59.200
And then the willpower is the movement, the action.

00:22:59.440 --> 00:22:59.759
Yes.

00:23:00.000 --> 00:23:03.519
So I'm heading down door number two, whatever it might be.

00:23:03.680 --> 00:23:04.240
I like that.

00:23:04.400 --> 00:23:05.359
I like that alone.

00:23:05.920 --> 00:23:10.720
That's the easiest way that I could summarize the research that he read and shares.

00:23:10.799 --> 00:23:13.200
And he goes into it way deeper than I can.

00:23:13.440 --> 00:23:17.759
We don't just add hope that there's pieces that come into play.

00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:20.960
Part of that, I think, is perspective taking.

00:23:22.640 --> 00:23:25.519
You have a certain self-perception.

00:23:26.079 --> 00:23:31.359
You can see where other people are coming from and what other pathways are available to you.

00:23:31.519 --> 00:23:33.680
And that's the possibilities we're going to talk about.

00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:40.559
So I want to dig more into this hope idea because I'm finding it in the newer books and the newer research I'm reading now.

00:23:40.720 --> 00:23:47.839
The only time I ever heard anybody talk about hope was in church, Faith, Hope, and Charity or Love, Hope, and Charity, something like that.

00:23:48.079 --> 00:23:52.160
I'm so glad it's coming up as almost a new concept.

00:23:52.559 --> 00:23:57.440
My perception of myself is I am a hopeful person.

00:23:58.640 --> 00:24:16.720
Hope is made up of my perception, my past experiences, my beliefs, what has formed my identity, my track record in life, good, bad, indifferent, the whole map of me.

00:24:17.279 --> 00:24:19.359
It comes down to choice again.

00:24:19.599 --> 00:24:22.079
It comes down to every day.

00:24:22.319 --> 00:24:24.400
I choose to be hopeful.

00:24:24.640 --> 00:24:30.480
Why did I, a 73-year-old man, wake up at six o'clock this morning?

00:24:30.640 --> 00:24:37.759
I'm going to swim a mile and a half and do strength training for another hour, along with my meditation and yoga.

00:24:37.920 --> 00:24:44.559
I've told Sadra, if she ever sees me just sitting around doing nothing, that means I'm in trouble.

00:24:45.039 --> 00:24:48.319
So please speak up and kick me in the butt.

00:24:48.559 --> 00:24:53.359
Well, and so that goes back to what happens when someone's perception is limiting.

00:24:53.519 --> 00:24:57.039
For you, that's a sign for you that you're not up.

00:24:57.200 --> 00:25:00.880
It would be interesting for people to think about their own signs.

00:25:01.279 --> 00:25:05.359
And let's link that to Brene Brown talks about her value system.

00:25:05.519 --> 00:25:17.440
It's not just what does it look like when you're living in your values, but what does it look like when you're slipping is a core piece of self-awareness that this is what it looks like when I'm not feeling hopeful.

00:25:17.759 --> 00:25:19.920
I'm losing perspective.

00:25:20.319 --> 00:25:29.839
In her book, Dare to Lead, she digs deeply into values and provides the reader with a tool to narrow down our top three.

00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:36.079
She goes further by asking us, what are examples in my life where we're living in those values?

00:25:36.319 --> 00:25:39.759
And what are examples in life where we're not?

00:25:39.920 --> 00:25:42.720
And I think she actually uses the word slippery slope.

00:25:42.880 --> 00:25:45.680
I'm going to ask our listeners to think about that for a moment.

00:25:45.920 --> 00:25:47.519
What is that slippery slope?

00:25:47.759 --> 00:25:55.119
For me, it's making excuses, particularly around the food I eat.

00:25:56.799 --> 00:26:08.240
It's the holidays, it's only a few days, and then before I know it, I've slipped back into those unhealthy eating habits that eventually got me into open heart surgery.

00:26:09.279 --> 00:26:16.480
The great news for me is I know a possible negative end result of those choices.

00:26:16.799 --> 00:26:21.359
Knowing that helps me to make that shift of time.

00:26:22.400 --> 00:26:23.519
No more excuses.

00:26:24.000 --> 00:26:30.319
I'm always on track with the exercise, but I can easily fall down the slippery slope around what I eat.

00:26:30.720 --> 00:26:36.559
I love that you were able to put that into a specific example.

00:26:36.799 --> 00:26:38.880
I think I'm still working on that.

00:26:39.359 --> 00:26:39.920
Yeah.

00:26:40.319 --> 00:26:54.319
That's actually two different theories coming together because there's a behavior theory that says you have to change your behavior and then see the outcomes to change your mindset.

00:26:54.559 --> 00:27:04.400
But SEL comes from like a social cognitive theory that's more change the way you think and your beliefs will change your actions.

00:27:04.640 --> 00:27:06.480
And they can work hand in hand.

00:27:06.720 --> 00:27:07.519
I'll start with it.

00:27:07.599 --> 00:27:10.319
This cognitive piece that needs to change.

00:27:10.480 --> 00:27:12.079
Let's put the plan in place.

00:27:12.160 --> 00:27:18.160
Your friend's vision, way powers, create the way power, create the path, and then make a choice and go down.

00:27:18.400 --> 00:27:26.799
Or behavior first, 12-step programs around for 70 plus years, fake it till you make it.

00:27:27.119 --> 00:27:32.319
Just practice a new behavior until it becomes part of who you are.

00:27:33.759 --> 00:27:37.680
I wonder if people tend to lean towards something.

00:27:37.839 --> 00:27:45.440
I know for myself, I need to generally change my thinking before I'll change my action.

00:27:45.599 --> 00:27:50.000
I'm more in my head and I need to reason something out.

00:27:50.240 --> 00:27:58.640
And I also think that I'm able to take perspective more easily than some other people can.

00:27:58.799 --> 00:28:05.279
But I wonder how many of our listeners can be like, you know, I'm definitely needing to change my behavior first.

00:28:05.599 --> 00:28:07.200
Head first or behavior first.

00:28:07.359 --> 00:28:14.960
I think my current perception of myself is my head gets me in trouble.

00:28:16.559 --> 00:28:20.880
It rationalizes and minimizes, and there's this internal battle.

00:28:21.039 --> 00:28:25.519
I'm more at a place in my life where, okay, change that behavior, Tom.

00:28:25.599 --> 00:28:26.079
Let's go.

00:28:26.160 --> 00:28:27.200
Let's just do that.

00:28:27.359 --> 00:28:34.240
This is a beautiful example for our listeners of both and it's not either or whatever works for you.

00:28:35.599 --> 00:28:40.400
And so that takes us back to this idea of perception how we always have a choice.

00:28:40.559 --> 00:28:40.799
Yeah.

00:28:41.119 --> 00:28:47.680
Want people to know too that sometimes we're in a situation, yes, sucks.

00:28:48.640 --> 00:28:49.519
This is awful.

00:28:49.680 --> 00:28:50.319
Yes.

00:28:50.559 --> 00:28:53.359
It doesn't feel like we have a choice.

00:28:53.519 --> 00:28:57.359
And we might not see that right away, but it is there.

00:28:57.519 --> 00:29:03.680
It's a different shift in perception, or it could be a small action, a small change in behavior.

00:29:03.759 --> 00:29:04.079
Yeah.

00:29:04.319 --> 00:29:06.240
That accumulates over time.

00:29:06.480 --> 00:29:07.119
Yeah.

00:29:08.240 --> 00:29:15.039
And when I think about our students, you can take a survey that tells you your hope level.

00:29:15.279 --> 00:29:15.839
Wow.

00:29:16.079 --> 00:29:19.759
Do you need to work on your willpower or your way power?

00:29:20.160 --> 00:29:27.279
And our students sometimes might have the willpower, but they don't see the way.

00:29:27.519 --> 00:29:32.079
This links back to research from the Search Institute around developmental relationships.

00:29:32.240 --> 00:29:32.559
Right.

00:29:32.799 --> 00:29:47.839
A huge piece of it is that adults are helping students see all the possibilities that could change their perspective about school, about behavior, about other people.

00:29:48.160 --> 00:29:50.240
I go right back to Victor Frankel's life.

00:29:50.400 --> 00:29:57.200
He talked about, you know, three concentration camps in World War II, last one being Auschwitz.

00:29:57.519 --> 00:30:08.799
And yet he found this moment where he stopped asking himself, what did he need to get?

00:30:09.119 --> 00:30:12.640
Did he need to grab somebody's boots who had just died?

00:30:12.880 --> 00:30:14.960
Was there another piece of bread somewhere?

00:30:15.119 --> 00:30:19.200
He changed to asking himself, what's needed of me right now?

00:30:20.480 --> 00:30:22.559
What does the world need from me right now?

00:30:22.720 --> 00:30:27.119
He tells us in his book, Man's Search for Meaning, that saved his life.

00:30:27.440 --> 00:30:33.839
That attitudinal shift from me to let me find out what's needed of me.

00:30:34.079 --> 00:30:34.720
How can I give?

00:30:34.799 --> 00:30:35.839
How can I serve?

00:30:36.160 --> 00:30:40.000
He enhanced the lives of many people in Auschwitz.

00:30:40.240 --> 00:30:48.160
The choices he makes, he says the last of all human freedom is to choose one's response.

00:30:48.640 --> 00:30:52.400
There he is talking about that ultimate choice point.

00:30:52.960 --> 00:30:55.039
That's where all our freedom lies.

00:30:55.359 --> 00:30:58.240
The only moment we have is now.

00:30:59.599 --> 00:31:04.559
If I'm living in the future, I'm creating anxiety for myself.

00:31:04.880 --> 00:31:13.680
If I'm living in the past, I'm probably creating guilt or depression or some other nasty thing that's not good for me.

00:31:13.920 --> 00:31:17.440
At 73, I'm still working on living in the now.

00:31:18.400 --> 00:31:22.319
And yet, that's our most powerful place to live.

00:31:22.559 --> 00:31:32.960
While you were talking, it was reminding me of two core memories and never experienced anything to the level that Victor Frankel did.

00:31:33.279 --> 00:31:33.920
Yeah.

00:31:34.400 --> 00:31:37.759
We have known each other for 20 years now.

00:31:37.920 --> 00:31:39.519
I'm pretty sure I was 27.

00:31:40.400 --> 00:31:49.440
And I remember two times where I was in your basement sobbing and at the life skills conference, totally broken down.

00:31:49.599 --> 00:31:52.720
And it was a why is this happening to me?

00:31:52.960 --> 00:31:58.720
Feeling like I didn't have choices, like what did I do to have this happen?

00:31:58.880 --> 00:32:03.839
A shift for me started when I started thinking, what can I learn from this?

00:32:04.160 --> 00:32:05.839
What can I take away?

00:32:06.000 --> 00:32:11.359
How can I use this as a stepping point?

00:32:11.599 --> 00:32:12.160
Yeah.

00:32:12.640 --> 00:32:19.119
One of the pieces that kept coming up as I was looking at perspective is the idea of curiosity.

00:32:19.359 --> 00:32:31.200
When you're able to be open to perspectives, it allows you to continually be curious and ask questions, be reflective, and not shut off.

00:32:33.440 --> 00:32:36.240
Thank you for sharing that experience with me.

00:32:36.480 --> 00:32:43.119
I do remember that what's important is the choice you made that brought you to a healthy place.

00:32:43.440 --> 00:32:47.759
Then you bring up this favorite word of mine, curiosity.

00:32:48.000 --> 00:32:50.640
I'm married to the most curious being in the world.

00:32:50.880 --> 00:32:54.799
She's always asking how things work or what's this or what's that.

00:32:54.960 --> 00:33:01.680
We also know that along with travel, curiosity is an aspect of developing empathy.

00:33:02.000 --> 00:33:08.559
How can I be empathetic cognitively or emotionally with you if I'm not at least curious?

00:33:09.440 --> 00:33:13.759
Nothing would register, I would just go all with my day.

00:33:14.640 --> 00:33:22.160
Curiosity is critically important to responsible decision making, to innovation, to relationship building, to systems.

00:33:22.319 --> 00:33:23.519
It's so important.

00:33:24.000 --> 00:33:26.000
Curiosity is essential.

00:33:26.960 --> 00:33:28.799
This idea of curiosity killed the cat.

00:33:28.880 --> 00:33:30.720
There's a lot of squashing curiosity.

00:33:30.880 --> 00:33:38.640
Oh, sometimes what we do in schools when we want compliance, yet we want critical and creative thinkers.

00:33:38.880 --> 00:33:54.000
And so it's hard to teach students to be more open to taking perspectives if we're also pushing back on curiosity.

00:33:54.240 --> 00:34:13.599
Those two skills are related and it's up to us as facilitating that learning space, whether it's us with teachers and staff or staff with students to lean into curiosity and be open to perspectives.

00:34:13.920 --> 00:34:25.280
So if I had a relationship with the staff where there was a trust level, I would ask them what you're asking right now: do we really want curiosity and creativity?

00:34:26.079 --> 00:34:28.000
Uh hopefully the answer is yes.

00:34:28.320 --> 00:34:31.360
Because curiosity and creativity are messy.

00:34:31.920 --> 00:34:33.199
They're not compliant.

00:34:33.440 --> 00:34:36.800
Think of some of the greatest curious creative people in the history.

00:34:36.880 --> 00:34:38.480
I go right to Da Vinci.

00:34:38.960 --> 00:34:43.039
Absolutely not compliant, always moving on to the next, the next.

00:34:43.280 --> 00:34:45.920
Wouldn't he be a handful in school right now?

00:34:47.119 --> 00:34:49.920
Yes, I understand that there are places for compliance.

00:34:50.000 --> 00:34:50.960
I get it.

00:34:51.440 --> 00:34:53.920
Inappropriate behaviors and inappropriate behavior.

00:34:54.079 --> 00:34:56.559
But we're talking about this thing called learning.

00:34:57.119 --> 00:34:59.280
I don't know about compliance and learning.

00:34:59.360 --> 00:35:01.199
I don't think they fit together.

00:35:02.800 --> 00:35:12.079
And asking those questions and exploring that path can lead us in new directions we had an experience.

00:35:12.239 --> 00:35:18.480
When we shut that off, we're shutting down the learning, we're shutting down opportunities to grow in perspective.

00:35:18.719 --> 00:35:22.639
I like to go back to the original definition of the word education.

00:35:22.800 --> 00:35:28.239
The Latin word for education is educare, and it literally means to draw out.

00:35:28.800 --> 00:35:41.440
Education is not shoving information in, education is drawing out that curiosity, drawing out that creativity, drawing all those social skills and emotional skills out of that child.

00:35:42.800 --> 00:35:49.679
That requires a perspective that says we can learn from the students.

00:35:49.920 --> 00:35:50.400
Yes.

00:35:50.719 --> 00:35:51.360
From us.

00:35:51.599 --> 00:35:52.239
Yes.

00:35:52.800 --> 00:35:53.920
That's what I mean.

00:35:54.000 --> 00:35:57.360
So we do student voice days, and I know you do student work as well.

00:35:57.519 --> 00:36:01.039
If I'm going into a high school, I'm their age of their grandfather.

00:36:01.199 --> 00:36:03.280
But I tell them I want to learn from them.

00:36:03.440 --> 00:36:04.559
This is an opportunity.

00:36:04.800 --> 00:36:10.320
Not many people in their 70s have a chance to sit down with teenagers all day long and listen to them.

00:36:10.480 --> 00:36:12.960
It's a wonderful, uplifting experience.

00:36:13.199 --> 00:36:13.840
Absolutely.

00:36:14.079 --> 00:36:15.199
Beautiful.

00:36:15.920 --> 00:36:41.119
Some of the pieces that have been jumping out at me that I need to continue to think about is that perspective requires us to have a both and mentality and not just a thought process, but actually live that, actually make that come to life in our workshops, in our classrooms, in our schools.

00:36:41.440 --> 00:36:45.599
Thinking about do we lead with a behavior change or a thought change?

00:36:45.840 --> 00:36:56.320
Leaning into curiosity and knowing that we do have choices, no matter how big or small they might be.

00:36:56.639 --> 00:36:57.280
Yes.

00:36:57.679 --> 00:36:59.519
And all the choices are powerful.

00:36:59.679 --> 00:37:01.199
They all lead to learning.

00:37:01.920 --> 00:37:07.679
Sometimes we think that our actions, our thought or our behavior isn't going to take us anywhere.

00:37:08.079 --> 00:37:12.320
The takeaway for me is the hope path your friend talked about.

00:37:12.559 --> 00:37:14.239
Way power and way power.

00:37:14.719 --> 00:37:16.960
That's really important for our students.

00:37:17.199 --> 00:37:24.880
I would pass it on directly as your friend has identified it and help people explore both of those avenues.

00:37:25.119 --> 00:37:27.519
What a great learning experience that would be.

00:37:27.840 --> 00:37:33.760
Well, I think that's a great segue into our second talk together.

00:37:34.000 --> 00:37:39.519
What was your takeaway around perspectives that you were hoping they were going to walk away with?

00:37:39.760 --> 00:37:44.400
What I hope people come to is more of a middle ground rather than us and them.

00:37:44.639 --> 00:37:47.119
I like this idea from Stephen Covey.

00:37:47.280 --> 00:37:52.000
He says private victories always precede public victories.

00:37:52.320 --> 00:38:00.800
The work I'm doing inside, the perceptual work of who am I inside always precedes something positive outside.

00:38:01.119 --> 00:38:06.880
If I want to change a situation, thinking about our students in conflict, thinking about our teachers.

00:38:10.239 --> 00:38:13.679
And if I want to change myself, I need to change my perception.

00:38:14.639 --> 00:38:17.360
So it comes right back to that core again.

00:38:18.960 --> 00:38:21.920
That's powerful because that's within our control.

00:38:22.400 --> 00:38:23.039
Absolutely.

00:38:23.280 --> 00:38:30.079
The hope is that we might be able to influence people in a very positive way with that shift in ourselves.

00:38:30.480 --> 00:38:34.639
We'll know by how we feel, by our own health.

00:38:35.039 --> 00:38:37.920
Your next shift was talking about possibilities.

00:38:38.159 --> 00:38:38.639
Yes.

00:38:38.960 --> 00:38:43.599
How does a shift in perspective open up new possibilities?

00:38:43.920 --> 00:38:48.079
The idea of possibilities came to me through our daughter Ashley.

00:38:48.400 --> 00:38:52.800
Medically, she was identified as severely, profoundly retarded.

00:38:52.960 --> 00:38:55.440
I know we don't use those terms anymore.

00:38:55.679 --> 00:39:02.320
However, that's when I heard when my beautiful little girl was assessed at two and a half months old.

00:39:04.400 --> 00:39:11.840
My perception was she's beautiful, she's completely trusting.

00:39:13.679 --> 00:39:22.880
I came to learn day after day that I was in the presence of unconditional love, and that never changed about her 39 years.

00:39:23.199 --> 00:39:28.880
So my perception was okay, I've got this diagnosis over here, that's real.

00:39:29.119 --> 00:39:30.719
I need to deal with that.

00:39:34.079 --> 00:39:36.800
She's helping me be a better human.

00:39:37.039 --> 00:39:40.880
Everyone around her says how they feel better around her.

00:39:41.199 --> 00:39:43.760
So there's the both, and that's where I started.

00:39:43.920 --> 00:39:47.519
Oh, so what's possible for all of our learners?

00:39:47.760 --> 00:39:51.440
What's possible for that non-reader?

00:39:51.599 --> 00:39:54.880
What's possible for that child who has mathematical difficulties?

00:39:55.039 --> 00:39:57.360
What's possible for that child who looks different?

00:39:57.519 --> 00:40:00.880
What's possible for that child who doesn't know our language yet?

00:40:01.760 --> 00:40:07.920
I think possibilities, and I know we're going to explore it in depth, continues us down this both and road.

00:40:09.519 --> 00:40:11.199
Love how this has evolved.

00:40:11.440 --> 00:40:12.079
Yeah.

00:40:12.559 --> 00:40:27.840
We started off with just following your gut when you're in the car, about to walk in and do a keyboard in front of hundreds of people, and you're like, I think I need to change this to the four P's.

00:40:28.000 --> 00:40:33.760
And we had a couple of guiding questions in a lot of different directions and uncovered more.

00:40:35.920 --> 00:40:43.519
I'll be interested when we're done to see what those themes are and if this both and follows us into some of the other pieces as well.

00:40:43.920 --> 00:40:45.039
Excited about that.

00:40:45.280 --> 00:40:48.960
I'm excited to hear more about Ashley when we talk about possibilities.

00:40:49.119 --> 00:40:49.280
Yeah.

00:40:54.639 --> 00:40:55.519
Oh, wonderful.

00:40:55.760 --> 00:41:04.559
And thinking about how we can open up possibilities not only for ourselves and our own learning, but for our students as well.

00:41:04.880 --> 00:41:06.159
Thanks for this time together.

00:41:06.480 --> 00:41:12.880
The special episodes we had here with Tom and I talking are called SEL and EDU.

00:41:13.360 --> 00:41:21.760
We're gonna take a pause and reflect on what we've learned here and take that into our next conversation.

00:41:21.920 --> 00:41:26.000
So until then, everyone, take care of yourself.

00:41:26.480 --> 00:41:28.239
Think about how you're living in the boat.

00:41:28.400 --> 00:41:29.679
And thank you, Tom.

00:41:30.079 --> 00:41:30.960
Thank you.

00:41:34.719 --> 00:41:36.159
Thank you for being part of the