Dec. 3, 2025
085: Compassionate Coaching: Building Confidence, Collaboration, and Culture with Kathy Perret and Kenny McKee
Coaching should feel like a partnership where educators bring their expertise, name the barriers they face, and co-create next steps that actually fit their classrooms. We sit down with Kenny McKee and Kathy Perrett, co-authors of Compassionate Coaching, to explore a humane, practical framework for helping teachers move forward without judgment or gimmicks.
In this episode, we unpack six recurring barriers: lack of confidence, failure, overload, disruption, isolation, and tough school culture. Kenny shares how reframing "failure" with design thinking and action research turns data into direction, not blame. Kathy explains how to introduce coaching so it's not "come fix me," but truly collaborative. You'll hear how to offer options without overwhelming, ask for permission before advising, and attribute ideas in ways that build trust rather than hierarchy. We also highlight a simple data routine that changes conversations quickly: ask students two questions: "What helped you learn today?" What got in the way? Then use those insights to plan the next lesson together.
Across stories from elementary to high school, single-site to multi-school roles, we show how compassionate coaching strengthens teacher agency, elevates student voice, and adapts to wildly different cultures. You'll leave with practical tools for gathering meaningful, in-the-moment data, strategies for starting with willing partners, and a mindset shift: be the most coachable person in the building, model reflection, and celebrate small wins that compound.
If this resonates, follow the show, share with a colleague, and leave a review telling us which barrier you're tackling next.
EPISODE RESOURCES:
00:00 - Welcome And Guest Intros
02:46 - Community Resilience After The Storm
03:40 - Why Compassionate Coaching
05:29 - The Six Common Coaching Barriers
07:18 - Culture Shifts And Role Clarity
10:32 - Naming Barriers With Teachers
12:04 - Collaboration Over Fix-It Coaching
14:26 - Confidence, Isolation, And Real Life
17:07 - Reframing Failure With Data
19:28 - What Readers Find Most Useful
22:19 - Memorable Wins From Coaching
26:36 - Practical Advice For New Coaches
29:18 - Student Voice As A Data Tool
31:20 - Be The Most Coachable Person
33:48 - Music, Joy, And Connection
34:56 - How To Connect With Kenny And Kathy
36:54 - Closing And Mission
WEBVTT
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Welcome to SEL and EDU, the podcast where we explore how educators bring social emotional learning to life by sharing stories, strategies, and sparks of inspiration.
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I'm your host, Dr.
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Krista Lay, owner of Resonance Education.
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Thank you for joining us on this SEL journey.
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Kathy Perrett is an educational consultant specializing in instructional coaching, leadership development, and professional learning.
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As the co-author of Compassionate Coaching and the Coach Approach to School Leadership, she leads Kathy Peret Consulting to support school leaders, instructional coaches, and teachers via on-site and virtual learning around the world.
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Kenny McKee is an author and educator with an extensive background in instructional coaching, professional learning, and content design.
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He is the co-author of Compassionate Coaching: How to Help Educators Navigate Barriers to Professional Growth, drawing on his experiences, developing training for instructional coaches, designing educational content, and supporting district level goals.
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Welcome back, SEL and EDU family.
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I am so excited to have Kenny and Kathy here for us to talk about their book, Compassionate Coaching.
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So welcome to both of you.
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If you don't mind, just take a moment to say hello and explain just a little bit of an overview about what your book, Compassionate Coaching, is about.
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Sure.
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Yeah, my name is Kenny McKee, and I had the pleasure of writing this book with Kathy.
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Currently, I work in EdTech as a customer success manager, but I've had all types of different roles where I support educators, districts, including formerly as an instructional coach, but also other roles that involve coaching.
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Compassionate coaching is really about finding a framework for coaching that allows for quick moves that you can make depending on certain situations teachers find themselves in that may be obstacles to their learning or their goals.
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And we can kind of elaborate on what some of those look like as we talk today.
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Kathy?
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Yep.
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And I'm Kathy Perrett, and I am based out of Sioux City, Iowa, and long experience in education from a classroom teacher to a consultant to finding my love and passion of instructional coaching and uh excited to be here.
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So thanks for having us.
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Thank you.
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Because we were talking about before we got on that this has been a long time in the making because of just everybody's schedules and there may have been some natural disasters that have happened in the area that he lives in.
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Helene was a mess.
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Yes.
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I won't lie.
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Let's talk about that for a moment.
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How are they looking down in North Carolina in your region?
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Yeah, yeah.
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So Western North Carolina, we're a resilient community.
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And just even yesterday, we were driving through a section where a lot of the flooding happened and it's already a lot of the cleanup has occurred.
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There's still obviously places that are gone in various states of disrepair.
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But yeah, we're coming back as a community.
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So it's great to see.
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And I will say one of the shining spots post-storm for us was really getting to see our neighbors and our friends and family take care of one another.
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A lot of the divisions that you might see in everyday life really melted away.
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It was about people helping people.
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I love that piece that you just said about resiliency and community and coming together and people helping people, because that reminds me of the basis of your book.
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Right.
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Having passion, being moved to act, and how really, as a coach, it's educators coming together with other educators to support them when things don't go as expected and to celebrate the wins that people are having.
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And so I'm curious, Taki, what motivated you to write the book?
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I had a long experience as an instructional coach.
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I was trained by many of the great authors and such that we read.
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Started a Twitter chat, and it was a long-running chat, probably about 11 years, if I think back to that, called EduCoach.
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We're not in that space right now, but it was a wonderful time of learning.
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But what we noticed is we were sharing a lot of resources, a lot of strategies and ideas to help coaches answering a lot of questions.
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But because it's such a public space, nobody really wanted to talk about the situations that they were encountering that were difficult.
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If there was a teacher that was lacking confidence or feeling like a failure or whatever, it that was hard to talk about in a public space.
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We started to take notes.
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We I think we boxed back and forth to figure out what is needed in the world of coaching that's not out there.
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So as we started to gather those ideas, we categorized them, we talked about them, we had a long list of the barriers that people were mentioning.
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We narrowed it down to the six that we put in the book.
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But we wanted a resource for teachers or coaches to be able to use when they notice these barriers and situations without having to go to a public space to talk about them.
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And Kenny, what did you end up having as those six focus areas that really rose to the top?
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So the funny thing is some of them feel very connected.
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Like some are a more common type and some are a little bit more deep.
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For example, the first one that we address in the book is lack of confidence.
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The next one is failure.
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And we say failure is like lack of confidence with proof.
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Something has happened that has defined you in some way.
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And although those roots can be similar, you do have to address it a little bit differently when somebody feels like there's proof that they failed.
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The others that we talk about are overload, disruption, isolation, and then a cap where there is school culture challenges, because that's more talking about how do you both thrive in a system that's not optimal?
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How do you work to change the system?
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That systems piece and the culture is really important.
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When I think back on my five years as a coach, I often felt like an island under myself.
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I was technically TOSA for a while, teacher on special assignment, before they moved it into a permanent position.
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I was asked my opinion, but I wasn't the decision maker.
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If there was a miscommunication or lack of communication, I was a go-between.
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It was knowing what to share, what not to share, being able to keep people's confidentiality and support them, yet arising some big potential gaps that were causing some friction.
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I could have really used a book like this back then, thinking about what my role was and how I was supporting people.
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Because for me, it was just you're a coach, let's send you to a couple things locally, and here you go.
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There wasn't really an introduction to the staff on what this was going to look like, and I didn't know any different.
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So it was a sink or swim.
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And I'm seeing you both nodding.
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You were asking us about why we wrote the book.
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And I think Kathy and I have lamented the number of folks that have gotten coaching roles and just have been sent out and thought, oh, you're a great teacher.
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We're just going to make you a coach now.
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And although there are some shared skills between those two roles, there are a lot of skills that are different between those two roles.
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Sometimes the view of the district or the view of the person or the organization that I trained them might be very fixed compared to the dynamic of a school.
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We knew coaches were running into these situations that felt unique to them personally, but were not unique in the field.
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We wanted to develop some ways for them to respond to those situations that may not have been included in the framework for coaching that they learned or didn't learn in some aspects.
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We try to figure out a framework and actions that could be responsive.
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Because even Kathy and I talked a little bit about our own coaching experiences were different, with her background being in an elementary school and most of mine being in a high school.
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What could work in both of those areas and what were barriers we saw in both of those areas?
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I've even worked with coaches because the school culture chapter is just so important because these coaches have said, I'm in two different schools as a coach, and the culture is completely different.
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The two schools, what they're needing to do in either school is so different from each other.
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What can I do there in front of them to help them guide them through?
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Because it's a challenge, whether you're in one school or you're in multiple schools.
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I've worked with coaches that are in three, four schools that they're trying to coach.
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Yeah, that's a great point.
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I was one of those coaches.
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I had three, and sometimes you would talk to folks that were working in one, and not saying that one or three is easier or harder, but they are different.
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I like the way that you've said that.
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I was a secondary coach, so I worked in the middle school and the high school, and even the two different cultures there were very different among the teachers and then with the administrators, and then the relationships among departments and with admin.
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And I feel that in my work, a lot of it was on the instructional piece, but not as much on what the teachers were experiencing, how they were showing up, how they were feeling about the process for themselves as their identity as a teacher.
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I went back to work at a school district that I graduated from.
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So here I am, a former student who worked with them for seven years and is now working with them in a different capacity and needing, I think, to show myself as a learner in the process with them.
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Not that I knew more, but that I was a learner, I would probably want to pull out your book and use it as a resource in front of people.
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Have you had somebody say that before?
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Yeah, I've heard them use it lots of different ways.
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Now, I know that one thing that some people have asked us for are look for's and things like that.
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Kathy and I basically decided that's applying a very concrete, clear-cut element to something that's messy, which humans are messy.
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But more of trying to identify these barriers in your conversations and work with teachers.
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And I think that you could be transparent once you've named something.
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If the teacher agrees, like, hey, I'm really struggling with my confidence right now, or I really am overwhelmed or overloaded.
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I don't think there's any problem with that, but I do feel like the teacher has to name that that's the barrier.
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How do you feel about that, K?
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Yeah, I would agree.
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There's nothing wrong with pulling out the book and looking at an idea or something, but I think it's those initial conversations with teachers.
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As I coach, I do a lot of virtual coaching, and I'm always listening for their background story, even if it's when we're just connecting with each other on a personal level and what I hear them saying.
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And I can then pull through my lens and start to go, I they might be lacking confidence here, or they feel isolated, they don't have anybody to collaborate with, and they're eating up this coaching because it's the first time they get to collaborate with somebody.
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I think every situation's different, and I think it depends on the teacher and the coach and the trusting relationship that they've built with each other.
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You just mentioned, Kathy, collaboration, and that's so incredibly important.
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When I reflect back on my years, I don't know that I had the support to be an effective collaborator as much as it was a problem solver.
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This is a much more powerful.
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Do you mind expanding upon the collaboration part and what that means in the coaching process?
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A lot of it is how coaching is introduced to the staff, because unfortunately, it's introduced more as this coach can help fix you and fix the problems that we're having, or fix the problems in student achievement that we're not seeing.
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And that's not what a coach really is.
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That coach is that guide on the side and that collaborator and that problem solver, and it's more a peer.
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So I think it goes back to how it's introduced, and then how can that coach continue to act as that collaborator rather than coming in with all the ideas?
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A lot of times I tell coaches, take yourself out of it.
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If you have a good idea to share, don't share that you did it in the classroom and make you sound like the expert teacher.
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Share that you saw another teacher do this idea.
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And it's what you did, but frame it in a different way so that the teacher doesn't start to say, Oh, this coach just thinks they're wonderful and that they did it all, and they were so great at what they were doing.
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So just take yourself out of the formula and share the ideas from another viewpoint.
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One of the things we talked about in the book is if you are gonna make a suggestion, generally you should ask first, but if you are gonna make a suggestion, give them a couple.
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And then there are options, not too many, because then you're gonna overwhelm them.
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Another option is to go a different way.
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And that's why it's really a collaboration.
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And I I feel like for me, working with my experience as a high school coach, it may have helped me in the collaboration aspect, in that I worked with every subject area, and so there was no way I could be an expert in every content area.
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It was a collaboration of expertise.
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My expertise were in literacy and reading and assessment, but their expertise were like their students.
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They knew more about their students than I did, and they knew more about their subject than I did.
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And together we could pull those expertise to really create something amazing for kids and address whatever the goals are for the school or district at the same time.
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What I both heard you say in there is that the collaboration leads to teacher agency, that they're not being told what to do, but they get to have an active say in what that next step is because of their expertise with a particular group of students, with the content, with knowing their space.
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What was your absolute favorite part to write?
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I'd have to say some of the favorite chapters I had were more the lack of confidence and isolation for a couple different reasons.
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One, those were the areas I worked in a lot.
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When I was a coach, we were learning new strategies, and it was under a grant, and it was high stakes that we had to do what we had to do.
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But we had a lot of lack of confidence because we're totally new strategies, things that people had not really heard of in the literature out there, but they're very powerful strategies and models that we were using.
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So the lack of confidence chapter really was fun to write because I could pull from my past experiences and remember the great work that we did in that situation.
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We started EduCoach.
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We were isolated as coaches.
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You're sometimes the only coach in a school.
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I work sometimes with K-12 teachers when I was a literacy consultant.
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I started to realize there's only one high school chemistry teacher, there's only one music teacher in the school.
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So, how can my reading across the curriculum strategies help them?
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And who do they collaborate with?
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The other favorite part Kenny and I talk about a lot is that we wrote probably half the book during COVID that gave us some great time to write, and we had other things off our plate.
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Kenny, probably not so much, because he was dealing with two kids at home.
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My work came to a standstill.
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But it was also time for self-discovery because we went through these barriers ourselves.
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So lack of confidence.
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I was taking care of my 90-some-year-old father in a pandemic, and just the lack of confidence or the isolation through that, some of those feelings came up.
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And how do we move past that in any walk of life?
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These six barriers are not just teacher driven.
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I do a lot of crocheting right now, and I go through all the barriers basically in my crocheting.
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And then I have to coach myself with the focus area on what do I need?
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You hit on a couple pieces that really resonated with me.
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So many of the chapters that you have in the book deal with life themes and thinking about not only how you can show up and partner and collaborate with colleagues, but be a good friend and help walk through life with people.
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I had to bring up your crocheting piece because my mother tried to teach me to crochet, and I always end up with a triangle.
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So more towards knitting and cross stitch.
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But I've recently been trying to crochet.
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I have a Wobble that's half made, it's a little turtle.
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I can't tell you how many times I wound the entire thing to redo it.
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It's at least five, six, seven times.
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And you feel like you lack confidence.
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And so you're using YouTube as your partnership piece.
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And I have to tell you, my first dishcloth turned into a triangle, too.
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Because it's like all my crochet friends would say, You have to count your stitches.
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I'm like, I don't want to count.
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That's my issue too.
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But I think as in things with life, the more you try and you persevere and you get there, and then you feel the joy of the success.
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But it does take, like in crochet or teaching something new, a new strategy, it takes multiple times till we feel comfortable with something and competent, which can help us become confident.
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Kenny, what was your favorite part to write?
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Yeah, a lot of those parts also resonate with me, but I do have sometimes like a logic-oriented mind.
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And something about that coaching through failure chapter really was interesting to me.
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One, because I got to explore how we can reframe looking at data as information to drive forward.
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In that chapter, we dabbled with using different types of thinking, like design thinking, or looking at coaching as an opportunity to do action research, looking at a lens from that angle, thinking about how we can reframe the way that we approached coaching to really aspects of failure, to really reframe those as opportunities to learn or discover new things.
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As you were talking there, I had these ajas, and I don't know why it didn't connect with me before, but you talked about design thinking.
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And when I hear that, I think about empathy and being able to put yourself in a different perspective to see what is truly needed as a support.
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And then with action research, thinking about the scientific process and responsible decision making, and how perhaps this book could be more expansive as well, and not just for instructional coaches, but how educators can be supporting their students through some of these barriers.
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Um, what else have you heard has been resonating with people or new aha's that they've been making or parts that they really enjoyed?
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Yeah, I feel like some of the parts of those chapters, there's a data protocol that we talk about that's resonated with a lot of folks.
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A lot of the strategies we came up with were bite-sized so they could be flexible to use.
00:20:51.359 --> 00:20:58.000
Overall, I just hear from people that the book itself is a quick, easy, entertaining read.
00:20:58.079 --> 00:21:01.200
Like they feel like it resonates with them.
00:21:01.359 --> 00:21:10.000
It calls out things that maybe some other books don't, but it stitches together a story and then action, what you can do.
00:21:10.240 --> 00:21:14.400
A lot of the feedback I get is really about how the book feels conversational.
00:21:14.559 --> 00:21:17.440
You feel supported by us when you're reading it.
00:21:17.680 --> 00:21:30.640
It paints a scenario at the beginning of each chapter so you can see what this looks like in different places, different contexts, and then it really weaves into an exploration of ideas and actions you could take.
00:21:30.880 --> 00:21:34.079
Well, it came out in the summer, if I remember correctly.
00:21:34.319 --> 00:21:54.079
And I heard a lot of people reading it straight through in the summer, but then as the school years started, they were able to pull it off the shelf when they started to see those situations come up and kind of review if the teacher's lacking confidence.
00:21:54.400 --> 00:21:57.839
What ideas could I possibly bring to the table?
00:21:58.079 --> 00:22:04.160
How could I approach this situation with the coach and teacher relationship?
00:22:04.400 --> 00:22:12.880
I think they like that they just don't go on and on about a strategy, they're about two paragraphs long and they go on to another idea.
00:22:13.119 --> 00:22:17.440
And so I think that's resonated with some of the coaches that have read it.
00:22:19.440 --> 00:22:24.160
What has been your most memorable experience as a coach?
00:22:29.039 --> 00:22:36.000
As I said earlier, I worked in that grant situation and the strategies were different, the approaches were different.
00:22:36.160 --> 00:22:44.400
We did a lot of peer coaching, we used data to drive our instruction, and it was hard work.
00:22:44.720 --> 00:23:04.079
And I had teachers at the end of that, sometimes I still have them coming up to me, and that's been 10, 15 years ago, to say those were some of the best learning and growing and experiences I've had as a teacher.
00:23:04.319 --> 00:23:12.960
I had one teacher at the end of the year back then say, You knew when to push and you knew when to pull it out of me.
00:23:13.119 --> 00:23:15.680
I'll never go back to teaching the way I used to.
00:23:15.839 --> 00:23:20.079
They weren't used to using data to drive their instruction.
00:23:20.319 --> 00:23:30.319
Now we have an abundance of data going on because we think we need all of this data where we need some data to be able to teach them.
00:23:30.400 --> 00:23:40.640
I think we've gone maybe a little too far on the data collection side, and we get to that drip piece of data rich and information poor.
00:23:41.119 --> 00:23:45.519
But those years in my coaching were probably some of the best.
00:23:45.759 --> 00:23:46.319
That's awesome.
00:23:46.400 --> 00:23:47.200
Thank you for sharing.
00:23:47.440 --> 00:23:49.599
I can still see it when they talk about school.
00:23:49.759 --> 00:24:11.440
Those teachers that I talked with, I'm like, they they wouldn't have talked about this pre this situation in our lives, but I can tell how they use the data, they drive the instruction, they practice the strategies until they get close to executive control, just like we talked with crochet.
00:24:11.839 --> 00:24:20.880
We want to continue to have triangular dishcloths, or do we want to practice it until we gain some control over that?
00:24:21.039 --> 00:24:25.519
And then how can we use that skill to try something else?
00:24:25.759 --> 00:24:28.960
How can we go from the dishcloth to the blanket or the whatever?
00:24:29.200 --> 00:24:32.160
Sometimes we don't know something's a barrier until we jump in.
00:24:32.640 --> 00:25:00.160
Your question about a memorable experience, it's hard to pinpoint one, but what I do feel like has been most memorable for me is when you're working with someone through a coaching process and you see their kids do something that they did not believe they could do before.
00:25:02.480 --> 00:25:06.960
Whenever that happens, that's just the best thing.
00:25:07.279 --> 00:25:15.759
And working with teachers sometimes again, the idea of action research, like they'll say, What if this doesn't work?
00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:16.799
It may not work.
00:25:17.599 --> 00:25:32.000
And I think that is freeing to people to try something new, to know that it's about iteration, it's about us really discovering uh what's gonna really help kids learn, help them be engaged.
00:25:32.160 --> 00:25:48.000
Yeah, there's a couple of uh instances that come up in my mind, but really the unifying pattern is it's when the teachers might have this vision of what the kids could do, but didn't believe they could achieve it, and then we actually see it, or we see even greater than that vision they had.
00:25:50.799 --> 00:25:58.559
Even as somebody who works with educators, um trying new things and it might not work.
00:25:58.880 --> 00:26:04.160
It's a little scary to do that, especially with adults, but then it's what could have made this different?
00:26:04.319 --> 00:26:05.519
What advice do you have?
00:26:05.680 --> 00:26:06.720
What recommendations?
00:26:06.799 --> 00:26:08.400
And then let's try it again.
00:26:08.720 --> 00:26:13.279
What input can you solicit from the students about their experience?
00:26:13.759 --> 00:26:21.599
What advice would you give somebody who was starting off more of the as a novice coach?
00:26:21.759 --> 00:26:33.519
Maybe it's their second year in the building or they're expanding into another building in terms of maybe some starting points or some thoughts or mindsets they should consider.
00:26:36.480 --> 00:26:39.039
Well, that's a great question.
00:26:39.200 --> 00:26:49.039
One of the things I think is really how you introduce yourself as a coach in the coaching process and working really closely with the administrator to be a shared message on that.
00:26:49.440 --> 00:26:59.519
It's hard for a coach to have an administrator that's absent in the coaching process, but what's harder is an administrator that misrepresents the coaching process.
00:27:00.240 --> 00:27:06.880
I think if they're not interested in that, if you're a district coach and working in different schools, sometimes that happens.
00:27:07.279 --> 00:27:10.480
Then you can frame that story about what your role is.
00:27:10.720 --> 00:27:19.119
But if the principal's really going to be a big part of it and they should be working with them on that, I think you start with the willing.
00:27:19.200 --> 00:27:22.880
You find the folks that are willing to work with you.
00:27:23.200 --> 00:27:25.759
You might even work with some of the strongest teachers.
00:27:26.000 --> 00:27:29.599
People think like coaching is about what's your next steps.
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