Nov. 12, 2025
084: Leading with Less: The Power of Minimalist Leadership with Tammy Musiowsky and Christine Arnold
Leading a school shouldn’t feel like juggling flaming clipboards. Tammy Musiowsky and Christine Arnold join us to share how minimalist leadership turns a noisy school ecosystem into a coherent one by aligning purpose, editing systems, and removing friction that wastes energy and time. They unpack the Triple P (purpose, priorities, pare down) and the Five Rs (reimagine, remove, repurpose, reinvest, refine) to show how small, smart edits in communication, operations, and culture create outsized gains for teachers and students.
We explore why interdependence matters: when leaders are stretched or unclear, stress cascades through the whole community. Tammy and Christine walk through concrete ways to “buy back” time by blocking deep work, backmapping deadlines, simplifying meetings, and building buffer zones so people can think. They make a powerful case that simplifying raises the level of thinking by freeing attention for strategy, feedback, and relationships.
Along the way, we get candid about tradeoffs, boundaries, and the signals leaders send without realizing it. A head-up greeting, a cleaner email, and a tighter agenda can shift the emotional climate of a hallway, a team, and a school day. If you’re craving fewer initiatives and more impact, this conversation delivers practical edits you can make next week, plus a mindset that keeps them sticking. We share favorite chapters on time and well-being, talk through tool choices and timelines, and highlight how to reduce friction in your own role, even without a formal title.
EPISODE RESOURCES:
- Connect with Tammy and Christine via the Plan Z website, Tammy's Instagram, LinkedIn (Tammy), LinkedIn (Christine).
- Read their books:
00:00 - Welcome And Guest Intros
02:28 - Why “Ecosystem” Matters In Schools
05:20 - From Classroom Minimalism To Leadership
09:15 - The Triple P And The Five Rs
13:20 - Editing Communications And Systems
17:40 - Time Structures And Buying Back Time
22:10 - Well-Being And Leadership Influence
27:05 - Reducing Friction And Increasing Clarity
31:10 - Planning, Timelines, And Tools That Help
35:20 - Real-Life Tradeoffs And Boundaries
38:40 - Music, Motivation, And Gamifying Work
41:10 - How To Connect And Next Steps
WEBVTT
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Welcome to SEL in EDU, the podcast where we explore how educators bring social emotional learning to life by sharing stories, strategies, and sparks of inspiration.
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I'm your host, Dr.
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Krista Lay, owner of Resonance Education.
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Thank you for joining us on this SEL journey.
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I'm Brian Carpenter, host of FreshArt5, part of the Education Podcast Network.
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Just like the show you're listening to now.
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Shows in the network are individually owned and opinions expressed may not reflect others.
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Find other interesting education podcasts at edupodcastnetwork.com.
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Tamara Musiowski is a professional development coach for Catapult Learning and a professional learning facilitator.
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She is an ASTD Emerging Leader class of 2014, is the executive director of the Advancing Leaders Collaborative, and is a Hawaii Society of Technology and Education board member.
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Christine Arnold has worked in Australia, Japan, Singapore, Belgium, and the Netherlands as a teacher, coach, mentor, co-teacher, coordinator, tutor, and supervisor from early childhood education to adult education.
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I am so excited to have two of my favorite people back on again.
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Tammy and Christine were on season one, and they are back again, more powerful than ever, with a new book for you both.
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So, Tammy and Christine, welcome back to SEL and EDU.
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Thank you.
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It's fun to be back.
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Yes, and as always, we're in totally different time zones.
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Tammy, what part of the world are you joining in from?
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And what time is it there?
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I'm just three hours behind you at this point.
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So it's not too bad.
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Not the darkness that it could be if I was in Hawaii.
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But yes.
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Yes.
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And I thought for a moment you were there, and I'm like, why is she getting up so early?
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And then I thought, why is Christine working so late?
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Christine.
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We're okay.
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It's only 5 p.m.
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over here.
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So it's a nice comfy time.
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Yes.
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So we're all scattered throughout the day.
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I asked you to come back on one because you always have new work that you're putting out.
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Tammy, for your own work and Christine in plan Z, you have a new coaching framework that you've developed and are using with the teachers and administrators you've been working with.
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And speaking of serving administrators, you have a new book that is dropping.
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It's your school leadership edit, applying minimalism to your school ecosystem.
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So I was just on somebody's dissertation survey.
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I did their dissertation survey, and they were talking about learned-centered ecosystems.
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And I was with somebody else in this call who his expertise is in learning ecosystems.
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I'm curious what resonated with you around that word ecosystem.
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A huge part of it was just recognizing how interdependent everybody in a school community is.
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Really thinking about if one part of the community, whether it's leadership or staff or our parents or our students, if any of them are not feeling it, they're not really thriving, it's going to throw everybody else out in some way, shape, or form.
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We're focusing a lot on leadership.
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And I think a lot of the time we think of our school leaders as being fine.
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They're okay, they've got a nice office, they're on a nice pay scale, like they're fine, we don't need to worry about them.
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But actually, if they're not doing okay, that is going to cascade down to everybody else in the community.
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So I think that ecosystem analogy was a really nice one to think about how, yeah, just one bit is going to throw the rest out.
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So we all need to be really working together to make sure that everybody is doing well, is healthy, their well-being is looked after and so on.
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Yeah, I think that's such a powerful piece that we know inherently is there, but often in the muddle and the quickness of everything, we forget about.
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Even looking at it from an SEL point of view, we want our students to be healthy and have a passion and purpose.
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But we also know we want our educators and our leaders, because, like you said, Christine, it's all they're all interdependent.
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And so I know you have a minimalist foundation in this book, like your first one.
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And so, what motivated you to write this second book?
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How is it different from the first one?
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So we started writing this one.
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I want to say maybe a year and a half after the first one came out.
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It's like December 2022.
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We have files started.
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And I think we were just potentially still riding up a high from the book.
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Like we were excited it came out.
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We were getting some good traction with webinars and people wanting to talk about it, being on podcasts and talking to people about these ideas.
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And so we just started dropping ideas in this folder, like maybe we should write like a school leader lens book.
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Maybe not.
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And so we had stuff sitting there for quite a while.
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And then we didn't start like actually getting serious about again until 2024, early 2024, I want to say.
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So it sat there for a year.
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And then we had some conversation about okay, these are the roles that we're in right now.
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Maybe we should start writing this kind of newer framework.
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It's still grounded in minimalism, but we're looking at the school lens because we're in these different roles and we're seeing things from different perspectives.
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But it's from that bigger picture.
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We have a different framework, although we still talk about things from the first book in this book, because it is very essential for us to understand the triple P that we talked about in the first book.
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What is our purpose, our priorities, and how do we pare down?
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That is very fundamental.
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And so we took that and built out that bigger picture from that.
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We questioned even doing it because Christine was in a new role.
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They were going through school accreditation, she was planning a wedding, like all the life things were happening.
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And where I was like, no, we can do this.
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Let's plan out a timeline, let's get this thing together.
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And so it was a fairly big year just trying to get all of our words down on paper.
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But the deadline really kept us going.
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I don't know what you're talking about.
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It was very relaxing for me, Tammy.
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Um, just adding on to what you were saying there, I think as well when we were doing the webinars and sessions with people after the first book, we kept coming back to this question from the people that we were interacting with, where they were saying, I love this, minimalism, fantastic, sign me out.
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But what do I do if I'm in an environment where nobody else is thinking about minimalism?
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What if I'm in a context where the leadership above me is the complete opposite of minimalism?
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So what do we do then?
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And so I think driven by a lot of the questions that we were having in our sessions and our interviews, we were like, yeah, there's a call for something bigger than individual teachers themselves in their own classrooms.
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So I think that was one of the big motivators for us as well.
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Christine, with your new shift into your role, how are you seeing these different pieces fit into your day-to-day?
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I think it's always a journey, right?
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It's always a learning journey.
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I don't think you can necessarily say that we 100% do everything that's in either one of the books, but it's something that we're learning and thinking about and growing all the time.
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But I think shifting into more of a leadership role, it gives you a very different perspective about the systems behind schools that you might not necessarily see when you're in the classroom and your majority of your focus is on your kiddos.
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So I think when we were writing about some of those systems and thinking, yeah, some of this could be streamlined as well.
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It's not just the day-to-day in the classroom, but there's some of these big systems that underpin all of the workings of our school that also could be streamlined as well.
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And I don't necessarily have all the role that has the power to enact some of those changes, but I think it's also still useful to be asking those questions and having that discourse and do that thinking about how we could potentially improve as well.
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And then thinking about this as well, you don't have to have a formalized leadership role to be considered a leader.
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You're part of that ecosystem.
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And because you're part of that system, you have the agency and you have the power to influence that system and to affect change.
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Tammy, when somebody orders the book, what can they expect as they go through?
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So we haven't written similar to the first.
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So where you could just grab a chapter and read it, depending on what your need is, but we do recommend reading the first couple of chapters because the introductory chapter and we have a preamble are really valuable in just the sense of getting some background information, putting the spotlight on school leaders and the impact that you'd have on schools and getting that bigger picture alignment there.
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The first chapter is about building out that culture and ecosystem and what that looks like.
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And then each of the subsequent chapters are about doing an edit.
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That's why the cover has highlighters on it, because it's an editing process, right?
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Anytime we're going through some kind of process of evaluation, reflection, something, we think of it as what are we keeping?
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What are we gonna do away with?
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What are we editing, right?
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So, how are we making things more streamlined?
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In each chapter, you'll also find sections around our five R's.
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Reimagine, remove, reinvest, refine within like the one of the chapters is editing communications.
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So we'll talk about these are the ways in which like you can remove things from your communications.
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You can reinvest different communication tools.
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Each chapter has these concrete pieces that you can say, oh, this is actually like a little edit that I can make in my communication systems because something's funky there and my message isn't getting through.
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That's how each chapter is set up with examples and research behind everything.
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Christine, I saw you starting to look up something.
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Do you have those five R's?
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I do.
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I think this is very fascinating for everybody.
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You just because you wrote it doesn't mean you've memorized the whole thing.
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But yes, our five Rs reimagine, remove, repurpose, reinvest, and refine.
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So as I'm reflecting on those five R, I'm looking around my office space.
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And I'm even thinking about my space, which I know you address in your first book.
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And I'm thinking about what do I need to do to get a good start going into this school year?
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I'm gonna be back working in schools again with teachers in their classrooms, and I want to make sure that I'm prepared to have better communication, to be better organized to streamline what I'm sharing.
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So I'm even seeing that for people who are working between buildings or people who are working outside of buildings, I'm working with ecosystems that are already structured, but how am I ensuring that I am going in with a similar flow that is existing in there, knowing that I can have some influence, but that I am streamlining things too for the educators to not make it feel like something bigger or more?
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What audiences did you have in mind as you were going through the process?
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And did that shift at all?
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Thinking for myself personally, I can't speak for Tammy.
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I was thinking about anyone who has any investment in the school as a whole.
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So it could be any of your leaders, it could be your board, it could be, you know, your parent association, any sort of group that is looking at the school as a whole.
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Which is your teachers as well, obviously.
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I would hope that anyone in that ecosystem, as you mentioned, would find something that is relevant to them and also helpful in what they're trying to do to edit down what they're doing and the systems that they're engaged in.
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But we do lean into the voice being towards school leaders themselves for sure.
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We really wanted to highlight the influence, the impact that they can have, but also in addition to that, how important it is that they are as well.
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Because we can't ignore the fact that they are a crucial part of that system.
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And so they need to be looking after themselves just as much as everybody else in the community.
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One of the things that I admire most about both of you is that you live what you share and what you practice.
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Earlier, you were both saying we're still working through parts of these ourselves in our own lives, in our work, and sharing what has worked for us and what we're hearing there's a need around.
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Tammy, how do you apply these different pieces and philosophies in the work that you do?
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So I like you go in to schools now as an outsider, right?
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So I'm no longer in a school-based role.
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But the way that I approach coming in to work with teachers and leaders is that I really do value what they already do.
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So I'm looking at, okay, this is what's happening right now.
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I really try to think about it from like a simplification lens because it is things can get very complicated.
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And I don't want to be the source of more complication or confusion or whatever.
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But I would like to think that I add some layer of complexity because people are thinking about things differently through some of the work that we do together.
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And the lens that I bring is often from the five Rs.
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What are we removing and what are we repurposing?
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And how can we do what you're doing, but just do it better?
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This is the big idea behind both books, really.
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We don't want people to think about this as an initiative.
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It's not.
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It's a way of thinking, it's a mindset, it's being highly reflective in just what we are doing and how can I do this better?
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How can I make this easier on myself?
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How can I reduce friction?
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And with that, like that just takes away some of the stress in our roles, right?
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When we just boil it down or pare it down, as we would say, because it is so easy to get pulled into all of the things, the overcomplications, even as a person as an outsider coming into schools.
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One of the pieces that you said that I really gravitated toward was that it's simplifying, but still increasing complexity.
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Can you talk a little bit more about that?
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Yeah, I think we've both come across people who think, oh, you're minimalists, oh, you're like the lazy teacher.
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You want to do less and put in this half-hearted effort.
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And we don't see ourselves in that narrative.
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I don't think not.
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I can definitely say that you are some of the most intentional, purposeful, creatively thinking people I know.
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Oh, that's lovely.
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Thank you, Krista.
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No, I think this work that we've been attempting to do for the last few years is really coming back to that triple P with the focus on your purpose.
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If you are constantly mindful of what is the purpose, what is the big picture here?
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I think it does help you be very strategic in the work that you do.
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So you stop going, oh yeah, that's a cute idea, or oh, that'll be so fun, or wouldn't the parents love that, or something, and go actually stop.
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What is the purpose here?
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Is this actually meeting all of the strategic plans and the mission of the school and everything else and the finance budget, et cetera, et cetera?
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So I think in that way it adds that level of complexity in that you're always being very intentional in the work that you're doing and not just skating by you're trying to take the easy way out.
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That's definitely not what we're advocating for.
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Yeah.
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And as you were talking, for the words that jumped into my head are focusing on function and not the flash.
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Sometimes that is what overwhelms.
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And it also reminds me of I think it's like Oxum's razor, isn't it?
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Like this mindset or philosophy that sometimes the best way from point A to B is right through.
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It's the smoothest, the simplest, the first idea that comes can be the best.
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And it doesn't need to be overly complicated.
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And complicated is different than complex.
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When you think about the book, because I know you've just been going through final edits, reflect back on what was your absolute favorite part for each of you.
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Initially, the problem child came to mind because we had this chapter that was like, what is happening here?
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But for me, the chapter on time, how to edit your time structures, is so fascinating.
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There's just some really interesting people who've done research about what we do with our time, how we use it, the best ways to use it, timing, like all of those things.
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I think that's our longest chapter.
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And I do think that's probably one people are going to gravitate to because we know that time is a concern and an issue in schools.
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How do we buy back time?
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What can we remove so that I have more time for this?
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And so there's definitely a lot in there.
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And it feels tangible, right?
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It feels, oh yeah, I can do this thing.
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I can just modify how I think about this or how I put this in my calendar or how I schedule this, how I present it to people in this way.
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I do think that's one that's gonna be one that people really gravitate to.
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I love that you brought up the pop problem child there, Tammy.
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It seems like in both books, we ended up with this one chapter in both of them that we just could not wrap our heads around.
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We got there in the end, obviously, but it's a fascinating part of the journey to go through.
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I got really revved up and excited working on the preamble, the forward.
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And I had the idea and I said to Tammy, I don't know if this is a chapter, I don't know if it even belongs in this book, I don't know what it is.
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I don't even know what it is.
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But just that idea of how influential you are when you are in a leadership position, and you can't take that for granted.
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You can use that for good, you can use it for evil.
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So take it seriously.
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It's such a huge responsibility.
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I really thoroughly enjoyed sort of thinking that all through and how to phrase it and without it being too scary or doom and gloom for people, but actually something that is invigorating and exciting and a joy to be a part of.
00:19:58.799 --> 00:20:04.319
And yeah, we ended up putting it in at the beginning there to help set that tone for the book as well.
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I thought, Christine, that you were gonna say the well-being chapter, because that was another one where it was like we could just keep going in here.
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That was a favorite.
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That was a favorite too.
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You're right.
00:20:16.720 --> 00:20:20.960
Yeah, there's some really good research there and some solid ideas.
00:20:21.359 --> 00:20:26.960
For this cycle, these last couple podcasts, it's been with people who have just written books.
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And it's been inspiring to me to learn about the process because you have these ideas, you're grappling with what does this mean?
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How does it all fit together?
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And it's learning while you're writing, and it's transformational in that process.
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So those pieces that were your favorites to write, how has it changed your own practice or your own mindset?
00:20:52.240 --> 00:20:54.559
I think that's a really interesting thing to ponder.
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Thinking about the well-being chapter that Tummy just mentioned, diving into the research around educator well-being and specifically leadership well-being, I think it was very helpful and informative to see, you know, how serious it can be and some of the techniques and strategies that are necessary as well, which obviously you can utilize in your day-to-day life as much as you can fit in.
00:21:21.200 --> 00:21:41.759
But I think that the preamble there, talking about our influence, I think it's very helpful for all of us, no matter what your role, and I know it has been for me, just to be cognizant of how everything that you say and how you move through your day can have an impact on everybody around you.
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So even though I might be like completely caught up in my own thoughts about something and just do the briefest of nods to people in the hallway, that could be eliciting unintended responses in the people around me and how much of a difference you can make to other people's day if you just like put your head up and wave and have a cheerful greeting.
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And so you've got this ripple effect coming away from you in so many different ways.
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And I really try and be thoughtful about that.
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I do, I am a bit of a daydreamer, so sometimes I am in my own world, but I do try and be very mindful of it in my day-to-day.
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One of the things that reminds me of is when I first started teaching, I was in a connecting hallway between two big hallways.
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And at the end of that hallway of the tea part was a special education teacher.
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She worked with the students who needed emotional supports throughout the day.
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They were in all of the classes, including many of my classes, her students.
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And I would be coming in the morning and I was like, Hi, how are you doing?
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Good morning.
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And she was head down on a mission, like heading up.
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And I'm like, oh, she hates fake.
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Wow.
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And I made it my mission to get her to say hi to me.
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So, good morning, how are you?
00:22:58.079 --> 00:22:58.960
And keep going.
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