Aug. 6, 2025
077: Die Tired: Maximizing Your Impact with Dr. PJ Caposey
What if your greatest strength is simultaneously your biggest weakness? Award-winning superintendent and leadership coach Dr. PJ Caposey cuts through conventional wisdom to reveal a compelling truth: the qualities that make us exceptional are often the same ones holding us back from reaching our full potential.
Drawing from his experience as both a superintendent and cancer survivor, PJ shares profound insights about leadership as a relay race rather than a solo sprint. He discusses the liberating concept of "bringing all of yourself" to both work and home, breaking down the exhausting compartmentalization many leaders struggle with. Using the Enneagram as a tool for understanding our default dispositions, he demonstrates how self-awareness can transform not just how we lead, but how we live.
The conversation explores the "lighthouse" approach to parenting, finding joy in creating ripples of positive impact, and the courage to embrace our imperfections authentically. This permission to be authentically human while striving for excellence represents the core of PJ's leadership philosophy.
Whether you're seeking to maximize your impact as a leader, understand your behavioral patterns, or bring more authenticity to your daily interactions, this conversation offers practical wisdom that transcends typical leadership advice.
EPISODE RESOURCES:
- Connect with PJ via his website, Instagram, LinkedIn, and email: PJCaposey@gmail.com
- Check out PJ's books on Amazon.
00:00 - Time Management as Self-Management
05:12 - Enneagram and Leadership Coaching
09:50 - Your Superpower Can Be Kryptonite
16:15 - Joy, Purpose, and Leadership Philosophy
23:30 - Lighthouse Parenting and Life Lessons
30:42 - Leadership as a Relay Race
36:15 - Embracing Authenticity in Leadership
WEBVTT
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Welcome to SEL in EDU, the podcast where we explore how educators bring social-emotional learning to life by sharing stories, strategies and sparks of inspiration.
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I'm your host, dr Krista Lay, owner of Resonance Education.
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Thank you for joining us on this SEL journey on this.
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SEL journey.
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I'm Shanna Martin, host of the Tech Tools for Teachers podcast, a part of the Education Podcast Network.
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Just like the show you're listening to now, Shows on the network are individually owned and opinions expressed may not reflect others.
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Find other interesting education podcasts at edupodcastnetworkcom.
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Dr PJ Capozzi is the superintendent of schools from Oregon, cusd 220.
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He is the former Illinois State Superintendent of the Year and a runner-up for the National Superintendent of the Year through the American Association of School Administrators.
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Pj is a best-selling author of 10 books, dynamic speaker and a transformational leader and educator with an incredible track record of success.
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Welcome back, sel, in EDU family and welcome PJ.
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Thank you so much for having me.
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I'm excited to finally be able to make this work out.
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Yeah.
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So for those of you who've been listening, we've been going back and forth for a couple months.
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My life, your life in general, has just been coming up and I've got three kids, you've got four kids and work, and that just pulls us all in different directions.
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It absolutely does, but I'm excited to finally make it happen?
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Yeah, me too, just a couple of minutes ago.
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I'm like so, do you want to know the questions I'm going to ask you?
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And you're like no, let's just have a conversation.
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So I am going to take us all the way back to an ASCD Emerging Leader conference that we had in the spring.
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It was the first time I got to meet you, I think, in person, but, like we had been in similar circles of educators, you were sharing one of your keynotes with the group and you said something that just bowled me over and I felt very seen and, oh shit, I need to talk to this guy some more.
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You said time management is self-management.
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It's an unspoken truth that I feel like we like to sometimes cloud ourselves with other vernacular that doesn't allow us to take ownership of how things are going.
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But we all have the same 24 hours, we all have the same seven days in a week, we all have that same amount, and life throws different things at us.
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So I'm not saying time management is easy by any stretch of the imagination, but when we focus on the time aspect, that is fixed, it's the part that's variable is how we respond to it.
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It reminds me of the poster that's like in every counseling office or dean's office in schools is the E plus R equals O.
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Right, so it's the event plus the response equals the outcome.
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The only thing that we control in that is the response.
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The only thing that we control in time management is ourselves, and so, until we're willing to take ownership of that, I think everything else.
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And look, there's 10,000 books on time management on Amazon, right?
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There's lots of speakers and lots of seminars that make lots of money giving tips and techniques and hacks, and what I like to say is like all of those things work.
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They absolutely work.
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It's just like doing a diet If you do them.
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The issue is that you have to figure out why you're not doing them already.
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When I talk, that's the approach I take.
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And it's philosophy that kind of trickles into every other aspect of my leadership in life as well.
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Planning, organization, self-motivation, self-discipline was always my weaker area.
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I was like, no, I don't feel like doing this today, but when I was motivated I could knock something out.
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In your coaching, when you're working with people around leadership and culture and time management, what are some of the things that you offer to support people not uncovering what's holding them back and helping them move forward?
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I use Enneagram a ton.
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Enneagram is one of many different types of personality type behavioral assessments and people either subscribe to them or they don't.
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So if I find someone who likes Myers-Briggs they've also taken DISC and they've taken this and they've taken that and then other people see them as pop psychology and dismiss them writ large.
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When I was introduced to Enneagram I was somewhat in the middle where I was curious.
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I think anyone that does anything with brain science knows the brain likes learning about the brain.
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So they were intriguing.
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But I also was somewhat dismissive of them, largely because I felt most of them told you like definitively what you were.
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What I like about Enneagram is it tells us what our dispositions are, not necessarily what we are.
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In many ways it's limitless instead of limiting.
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So when I do Myers-Briggs again which I think has value, but I'm an INTJ and that's just what I am when you do work with Enneagram it tells you this is the kind of your default, but here's the work you can do to behave differently in different situations.
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I use that as a backbone of a lot of my coaching.
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Some people are responsive to it, other people aren't, and then I just use it anyway by asking them questions and essentially not using any of the vernacular.
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The kind of the thesis of how I work with people is typically most people's superpower is also their kryptonite, which is a really weird thing to conceptualize.
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So the thing that makes me successful in my life is also the thing that brings me the most trouble.
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So for me it's the fact that I love conflict.
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I am willing to have very difficult conversations.
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I'm willing to say things that everyone in the room might be thinking but no one has the courage to say so.
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I'm that guy and so in many ways that's great.
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I'm really good in crisis.
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I'm good in areas where there's a void in leadership to assume.
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The bad part is that not everything needs to be a fight right.
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What I found in my career is that I self-sabotaged a ton because I was constantly seeking conflict.
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That's just my own personal example, but in coaching I find it is the same way a lot of times.
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It's whatever is what makes us elite and is our superpower and gives us all of the juice that makes us really successful in what we do.
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Typically is also the same thing that, when we look at the foil of that, is what's holding us back.
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My role as a coach is just helping expose that to the person so that then they can make different decisions, so that they don't keep getting the same results that they have previously.
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I've worked in the Enneagram before you and I started talking, and I know that it's tricky too, because you take the survey, but your scores don't necessarily mean that's what you are.
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That's what I've been learning from somebody who works in that area.
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So I might've been high in one, but then the more we dove into it and I know, if you recall, you thought I was firmly one number, I'm like no, I'm pretty sure I'm a four wing five.
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I still go back to that and how some of them get mistyped, because you really do have to do deeper work in that to uncover where you're at.
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Don't they talk about a shadow side?
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And is that the site?
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Is that what you mean when you talk about the thing that is your strength can also be the thing holding you back, or am I thinking of it incorrectly?
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So they talk about wings.
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And then you have different angers, like different levels of integration.
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For me, and some people call it the shadow side.
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But so, whatever type you are, you have different angers, like different levels of integration.
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For me, and some people call it this chaviside.
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But so, whatever type you are, you have a type that you tend to act like when you're healthy.
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That isn't your actual type, and you have a type that you tend to act like when you're unhealthy, which isn't.
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And so, depending on what place you're in and the title of this is SEL so like wherever your emotional, mental health is at a time, you can, when you take the survey, end up in completely different places depending on where you're at.
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For those familiar with Enneagram, my description probably gave it away I'm a type eight.
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Type eights, when they're healthy, act like a type two.
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So if I'm in an exceptionally good place and I take the survey based on how I'm behaving, it's going to show that I'm a two.
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I'm about the furthest thing from a two, except when I'm healthy.
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That's how I behave, and so there's lots of times where we get ourselves in very interesting positions.
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If you take the Enneagram, you'd be like no, it says it's this.
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I'm that.
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The first few times I took the Enneagram it turned out that I was a type three and I behave a lot like a type three and I like type threes.
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That's who I hire the most when I'm not paying attention.
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That's what I'm attracted to.
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But I'm an eight.
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And so I went back to my boss.
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I think I'm a type three.
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He was very vested in the processes, Are you sure?
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And I'm like, yeah, I don't think so.
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He's like take it again.
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So I took it again, type three.
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And so he's here, an eight man, and I'm like, and domineering, and all these things, Like I don't want to be an eight.
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I'm like, no, I'm a three.
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And he's go home and have your wife take it as though she was you.
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And I was like off the charts and eight.
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I was like, all right, I'm an eight.
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So then I leaned into it and figured out how to develop my self-awareness and to leverage the parts of my default personality that I love and to work to mitigate the parts that I didn't love as much.
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You reminded me of something that I was watching, where they said whatever the number is that, you're like hell.
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No, that's not me is probably the one that you are.
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There's one of the first things I read about eights in the, when my boss told me he thought I was an eight and I was trying to rebel or reject that said, eights, when they're extremely unhealthy, become murderous and I'm like that's like the worst, like literally the worst possible thing you can say right and so.
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I'm reading that and I'm like I don't really love that.
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It's got the good side.
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It says it can be magnanimous when things are wrong.
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I'm like no.
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Like it says murderous brother.
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This is not a good thing.
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That hurdle as well.
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I'm still doing the work on myself and I'm still digging and I have a whole bunch of books.
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I just bought another.
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Where did I?
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Took it off of my professional shelf and put it over here?
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It's in the queue of things to do this summer.
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So hopefully, if you come on again, I might be like yeah, maybe you're right, I'm a six, but I'm still believing.
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I even looked before we got on.
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I'm still thinking on the four and I'm not super proud of all the four stuff.
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I'm like oh, so fours are by far the most statistically rare type as well.
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So if you are a four, you are I mean it's true like very rare, like unicorn status.
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So let me also go back and say that in the Myers-Briggs I'm an INFJ and that is also the rarest type of the Myers-Briggs Okay, I'm an INFJ and that is also the rarest type of the Myers-Briggs Okay, and I have taken that for the last 25 years and it shifts because it gives you the percentages right.
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So sometimes in my life I've been like overly introverted, but when I needed to start the business or when I went back to school and left my job at the school district, I moved back towards introversion because I had to if I wanted to achieve my goals and there were things with that.
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But I do think we shift a little bit, but I've always been an INFJ.
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If people dabble with Enneagram and you're like, oh, I don't want to be a type like.
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Any type can behave exactly like any other type.
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So when you read something you'd be like I really.
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So.
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For me, when I read a type three that looks attractive to me Now I'm not saying it is or it isn't, there's no one type that's better than any other type but for me, when I read type three, I'm like that looks like what I aspire to be.
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Any type can act like.
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It just takes you more energy.
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So the reason they brought up is when you brought up the introversion, extroversion, I'm an introvert, I can act extroverted.
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I'm a speaker right, I have to be extroverted.
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At times I do book signings.
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That requires that I'm just exhausted at the end of it, right?
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So my wife and I go to a dinner party she's an extrovert, I'm an introvert.
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We act the exact same.
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At the end of that night she's fired up and I need a three-day nap, right?
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Well, the same thing happens with Enneagram.
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As an eight, I can act like a one.
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It just is going to take me mental, emotional, physical energy to get there.
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That's where the self-awareness comes in.
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It's like I can be and do whatever's required of me in the situation to either exhibit empathy or to be kind or to be the leader needed in that situation.
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It's just going to wear me down.
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My default is being very command-controlled, dictatorial and directive.
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So that's who I am.
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Completely filter off.
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The other thing that gets asked all the time is I'm this at home and I'm this at work.
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Nope, you're one human being.
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How you are at home when you are proverbially naked is who you actually are.
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Now you can put on a great face at work, but that is probably exhausting you by the time you get home.
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Part of what's happened in my work in doing this is authentically leaning into the fact that I am incredibly flawed and unique and in some ways odd, and allowing myself to be authentically who I am at home and at work, because then I am not in this state of exhaustion all the time trying to play somebody like I'm on screen, as opposed to just being authentically who I am.
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That has me thinking back to my first couple years of teaching and I really felt I was young to be teaching high school just because of my birth date and I was 21 teaching upper level grades and I always felt for the first couple of years I was two separate people.
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I was my person at home and my person at work and over time those started to merge and at different times in our lives.
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It's a year and a half ago I was grappling with what does it mean to be quote a boss or to own a company and yeah, you're laughing because I've talked to you about this I'm like I don't know, but when I've leaned into who I am, authentically showing up whether it's what I think other people are expecting as a business owner or not is when I've had the most success.
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So I love that you're talking about the bringing not even bringing those two together, but just being authentically you as a whole person.
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And we're all like this beautiful messed up thing, right, like the most impressive people I know.
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When you get to know them, like we all have a soft underbelly.
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Right, there's the public image and there's really you and what I've tried to do, and part of the reason I think I've had success as a superintendent is I'm just trying to be me as much as I can.
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I have to tone down the cussing and some of that stuff.
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Right, I normally do, but in different settings.
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But I've leaned into being exactly who I am.
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Right, like I'm not a suit and tie suit guy.
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That's not who I am.
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And when I quit doing that, guess who?
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Cared?
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Nobody.
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So I'm a quarter zip guy, which I know is a silly, simple example.
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But there's so many people like superintendents that have been in the job for 15 years and they'll come visit me because we're doing good things and they'll come check out our district and they're like oh, you're awfully casual today.
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I'm like this is actually pretty dressy for me, brother, this is who I am.
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This goes to some of the talk that I do on time management as well, these social mores that we put on ourselves, that nobody expects of us, that we expect of ourselves and then we end up almost growing contemptuous over that again, nobody is assigning to us.
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Just because you're a boss doesn't mean you have to be a jerk.
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Just because you are an employee doesn't mean you have to be subservient.
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There's all kinds of different things, and if we just have the courage enough to identify why we think we have to act in a certain predisposed way and start to wrestle with that internally, I think that not only can we have more success, that we can actually have more joy.
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Our life's work is important and we're going to spend so much of our adult lives doing it, but we should be able to have some fun doing it too and be able to do it with integrity and feel good when we get home that we didn't just play a role, that we actually got to be who we are.
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So you just mentioned joy.
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What does joy mean or look like for you?
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My perception of joy is probably a bit warped.
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So I'd say that I have deep gratitude and that's easy for me to be grateful for the fact that I've got four healthy kids that in their own ways, are like perfectly imperfect, the same way that we all are, and getting to know them as they're growing and seeing the beauty in who they are and also the beauty in who they aren't and how they are internalizing some of the things that we tried to teach as parents and rejecting other things that I think they'll come back to in a few years.
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Being able to watch all that allows me to have incredible gratitude, I would say.
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Joy for me comes in a weird manifestation.
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I talk about this a lot publicly, but I'm a three-time cancer survivor, so at 44 years of age, I've been through some stuff and for me, a lot of times what I try to do is measure am I actually and this is a sports analogy, so for non-sports people stay with me for a second but am I leaving it all out on the field, right?
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Am I going as hard as I can possibly go, because the time that we have here is not promised and I feel like I've been blessed with some talents and am I doing everything I can to exhaust my talents for good?
00:16:44.796 --> 00:16:56.336
And so am I trying to create ripples in the universe that might make education a little bit better, that might make leadership a little better and, most importantly, might make individual humans a little bit better as we go through.
00:16:56.476 --> 00:17:01.075
For me, I think, joy looks like at the end of the day, was I true to myself?
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Was I a good husband and father?
00:17:02.357 --> 00:17:11.839
But did I create some ripples in the universe that day that might lead to positive impacts, whether it be in the two districts that I currently serve or in the greater educational or leadership communities?
00:17:11.839 --> 00:17:18.926
So joy for me is actually interesting.
00:17:18.926 --> 00:17:23.098
We just had graduation this last weekend and our final student speaker ended with a very simple statement, but it really resonated with me.
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It was like and it just said die tired.
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And that's it for me really.
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I just want to die tired.
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I want to give as much as I can for as long as I can know that I didn't leave anything in the tank.
00:17:32.888 --> 00:17:35.435
And you said that was from a graduating student.
00:17:35.435 --> 00:17:39.105
I said something about students these days.
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Kids these days are brilliant and I don't think at that young age I would have had the maturity or the wherewithal to, or the insight to even think something like that.
00:17:48.715 --> 00:17:49.557
It was pretty powerful.
00:17:49.557 --> 00:17:50.618
I was pretty happy with him.
00:17:51.287 --> 00:18:01.769
I keep quote books and I look at movie and I would have found it somewhere, but I wouldn't have been able to put it into those words in that way that it would have meaning that I'd want to share it out with people.
00:18:03.355 --> 00:18:05.593
Yeah, jack, washburn is a student's name, so shout out, jack.
00:18:05.593 --> 00:18:43.404
No-transcript is that on your last day on earth you get to meet the man or woman you could have become?
00:18:43.625 --> 00:18:53.140
Sometimes, as I'm trying to make decisions, I think about my core values and I think about is this something I'm going to regret not doing or doing at some point in my life?
00:18:53.140 --> 00:19:01.986
And if it passes through my core values, then it goes on to that one Am I going to really regret doing this or not doing this?
00:19:03.487 --> 00:19:11.112
That's interesting and that's a statement that comes up and I've discussed with a few people before is but regret's.
00:19:11.112 --> 00:19:18.477
So interesting because I think if I had unlimited money right now would I be making different.
00:19:18.477 --> 00:19:32.648
So there's all these permutations in the universe and so I think about that quite a bit.
00:19:32.648 --> 00:19:42.449
There's so many different things that could go in so many different ways and try and make the best decision given the current context, but knowing that if the context changed I would make a different decision, is a weird mind journey to go through.
00:19:42.449 --> 00:19:50.095
I'm not sure if you follow Marvel comic book movies at all, but Dr Strange is the guy who's like there's all these permutations, this is how it could end up.
00:19:50.095 --> 00:20:03.244
Like I feel like I do that more than the average human probably should, and all these permutations like that could happen if I do X and it leads to Y, which one is going to have the greatest possible impact, is something that happens quite a bit.
00:20:03.305 --> 00:20:23.333
But regret's an interesting word because there was a time in my speaking career and this is, I think, right when we first met pre-COVID, where it almost became it was financially illogical for me to continue being a superintendent, I guess is the easiest way to say it, and so I went through all those permutations.
00:20:23.333 --> 00:20:28.513
I decided to stay in it and then COVID hit, and thank God it did, because it changed the entire business landscape of consulting and speaking.
00:20:28.513 --> 00:20:31.188
But all of those things come in different ways.
00:20:31.188 --> 00:20:32.069
So regret's interesting.
00:20:32.069 --> 00:20:39.306
That's not a word that I think about very much, but I do think of all the permutations, of all of the different choices you make and how they could lead out.
00:20:41.430 --> 00:20:43.094
I do love all the Marvel movies.
00:20:43.094 --> 00:20:51.613
We've watched them numerous times as they came out and then re-watch them again in the order that you're supposed to watch them, according to the disney channel.
00:20:51.613 --> 00:20:55.509
There is a world out there where I am a panda bear caretaker.
00:20:55.509 --> 00:20:57.874
Okay, yeah, there is I like it.
00:20:57.874 --> 00:20:58.875
Yes, that's.
00:20:58.875 --> 00:21:03.715
I imagine that there's a krista out there who was like I don't think I can do people.
00:21:03.715 --> 00:21:09.734
I think that I need to take care of panda bears and animals maybe dogs.
00:21:09.734 --> 00:21:11.710
I have a different version of myself out there.
00:21:12.172 --> 00:21:13.536
So you're going through the permutations too.
00:21:14.685 --> 00:21:19.067
Yes, but I do think that's a piece that's important when you think about responsible decision-making.
00:21:19.067 --> 00:21:24.912
When working with students, there's not always just one path, and so when you take one step, what is that going to lead to?
00:21:24.912 --> 00:21:35.030
You mentioned ripple effects earlier, and so if we can think out some of those pieces, it might take us to ahas that we hadn't thought about.
00:21:35.030 --> 00:21:39.118
Or, as we start working through it, kind of new ripples that didn't exist before come up.
00:21:39.118 --> 00:21:46.857
So stick with me here too, because I might be getting a little too deep, but I think about when I was invited to apply for a tech coaching position.
00:21:46.857 --> 00:21:57.954
I was so happy in the classroom, but if I had not stepped outside, other doors that I didn't even know existed wouldn't have opened, and so that's what I think about when you think about those permutations.
00:21:59.006 --> 00:22:03.497
People ask me a lot what's the five-year plan, and I always say that I want options.
00:22:03.497 --> 00:22:12.776
So if I do my job well enough that I have a litany of options in front of me, that's what I want, and I know that seems like a non-answer, but that is truly what I want.
00:22:12.776 --> 00:22:26.646
If I am crushing it as superintendent here and I'm continuing to write and speak and do all the things that interest me outside from a business or even a self-advancement standpoint, I'm going to have plenty of options right.
00:22:26.646 --> 00:22:28.049
That's what I preach to my kids too.
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With a 19 and 18-year-old is do the work now so that at 25 you have options, because ultimately, who knows what's going to happen?
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Who knows what the interest is going to be, who knows what finances are going to be, who knows what personal relationships are going to be All of those things.
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