Leading Change in Education - E116

Rachel: 0:40

In this episode, we are talking all about how leading change is uncomfortable and messy.

Katie: 0:46

We'll start off with a quote that really grounded us and helped give us some really good reminders, and then we'll share some advice as you head into the world of change.

Rachel: 0:56

get started. This week, Katie and I are gonna be talking about change and leading change because, well, this topic is just full of things that we can talk about.

Katie: 1:13

Yes. So Rachel came across a quote, which I'll get her to share, and that kind of sparked a conversation this morning and, and we decided why not hit record and, and kind of discuss it a bit further.

Rachel: 1:23

Yeah, so this quote that I came across, it's from Natalie VAAs. Who is a fantastic educator. If you don't follow her on Twitter, you need to, we'll, we'll put her Twitter handle in the show notes for you. But the quote or what she posted, that really just got me reflecting over the last couple days. It says, leading change is an uncomfortable as hell. There's no way around it. The only way to get to real transformation is through the messy middle hold space for the struggle, both in yourself and for.

Katie: 1:55

And so this kind of hit home because I mean, I think, you know, as leaders in, in our buildings, there's always times where we're trying to do changes. We're trying to really change our classrooms uh, in program areas and, and in a lot of the work that I even think we're doing as a board and as a province, I think. it really kind of sparks some truth and makes me really think about what we've been going through and some of those challenges.

Rachel: 2:19

Yeah. There's so many topics and like so many areas that there's a lot of change going on for us, so big push for equity work, which is, is work that we really, really need to do. And some of that is super uncomfortable for folks depending where, where they are on their journey, or d streaming is a new one that's been brought in over the past couple years for us, so again, getting through that sort of change is uh, been a, a big sort of struggle. And then we also are very sort of geared towards building mastery and mastery based classrooms and, and trying to spread that in our school community. So Katie and I, I think, have probably been in a lot of messy middle for most of this school year.

Katie: 3:03

That sounds about right. Even though like, so I actually came across a tweet and I didn't think of it until you mentioned the whole equity thing, but it was talking about this whole, how messy it is and how hard it is and how It's not just joining a book club, which I thought was quite pithy because let's be honest, there's lots of book clubs for equity out there. But it's also about persevering through and really pushing to make change and not just giving up when it gets hard. And equity is messy. and it's dirty and it's, you gotta get in there and you gotta kind of upset so many different systems. Right. So when you kind of mentioned that, it made me think of that quote or that tweet. I'm gonna try to find it and link it into our notes. But it's, it's really important that we don't just take the easy route because change doesn't happen when we're just taking the easy road.

Rachel: 3:57

that reminds me of a quote and I, I forget what it says exactly, but that, Basically you, you, you don't change if you keep trying to do the same thing. So if you keep trying to do the same thing and expect a different outcome, like that will never ever happen. So you have to get into doing things different ways and, and trying different things in order for change to really happen.

Katie: 4:22

And, and so we gotta rethink the way we're approaching things and don't just fall into our normal, I guess, methods or processes of how we work through things. And it's challenging.

Rachel: 4:33

It's very challenging. So leading change, if we, if we go back to this quote, uncomfortable as hell, yes. It is very uncomfortable because you are trying to change habits. You're trying to change mindsets, and that is tough work. Like that is not work that gets done overnight and not even necessarily within a school year. Sometimes it takes two or three. In order to really kind of go through the cycles and work through the learning together before you get to a place where that change is even happening.

Katie: 5:06

and, and I think part of it is not everybody is also ready for change. So just because we are, it doesn't mean everybody else around us is. And so Sometimes you can really reveal a person's character and perhaps the struggles that they're at and, and how different their journey is. And I think that's part of that challenge though, because that's what makes us kind of stuck in the middle. Or like, do we move forward? Do we go backwards? Like, how do you navigate the road when you're, there's so many moving pieces and so many challenges.

Rachel: 5:38

Yeah, so it's kind of really interesting. During our last leadership team meeting that we had um, at our school, we were talking a lot about our school improvement plan and we were talking about changes and creating change within our school building and our school community. And, uh, one of our vice principals was talking a lot about some of the work that Steven Katz has. I can see if I can find some links and, and post 'em in the show notes for us. But he was talking about in terms of leadership and building that change that we can kind of divide our staff into half basically. So the first sort of half of our staff are like our early adopters and our early MA majority. So they're the people. our innovators want to try new things or we'll like jump on board whenever a new sort of opportunity arises. And then the next 50%, the other half of our staff are our late majorities, or I like the term, uh, that, that he used. Its active resistors, and, uh, Those are our staff who, you know, are, are a bit more hesitant to jump on board and try something new and um, or need to see the evidence that a change is going to be impactful or is going to stick around even for any kind of length of time, because maybe these are. folks who have seen stuff come and go in education and are like, nah, that's just the new trend, you know, and it's gonna go in the next year or so. So what I liked about the messaging from from that meeting is that as leaders in our building, we kind of focus on that, that first 50% and really work to grow. Them, which is always a strategy I've taken when I've tried to sort of lead change in, in my department. But then with the other 50%, we, we wanna try and nudge the late majority and we also wanna mitigate the negative impacts of the active resistors. And I really like that. I like the way it was all phrased and kind of put together.

Katie: 7:39

No, I like that phrasing. It works really well and I like the mitigating the impact. because it's true. We do have to.

Rachel: 7:46

Now that is based on the diffusion of innovations curve. I forget the person, so I'll link that in the show notes too. But, uh, they normally call those active resistors, laggards, so I actually really like the term active resistors way, b way, way better.

Katie: 8:03

I do too.

Rachel: 8:04

So I don't know, that just, it, it really kind of impacted me and I guess that along with the tweet and along with the work that I've been doing this year with my, my department and, and my course teams and that, like, it's, it's really got me thinking about how messy change really is.

Katie: 8:20

It's very cha. It is very messy. Rather it's, and it's also, we work in a system that. In all honesty, doesn't see a whole lot of change. Like if we look at curriculum documents even and how long they take to be reviewed. Again, like things stay the same for very long periods of time and, and it's really hard to make meaningful change because we are so structured and the system is so hard to move. So I feel like sometimes I feel like I'm like beating my head against a wall trying to make changes because it's like, when, when, when will it ever happen? How long do I have to keep pushing and trying before it finally happens?

Rachel: 9:00

And that's always floored. How can education not change and shift?

Katie: 9:04

I know, I, I get it because it should, because we learn more. We do better when we know better, and then yet we're so stuck to a system that just won't allow us to shift. I don't know. I don't understand it. How do we get Ontario education to move,

Rachel: 9:21

That's a loaded question.

Katie: 9:22

it? Pardon? Of me Is like an election

Rachel: 9:26

We digress. We digress.

Katie: 9:29

I suppose in like big picture thinking like we, we likely aren't going to change the system, so within our schools and within our departments and within our classrooms, I think that's where we need to lead the change. And we need to, you know, do what we can to be better and do better and, and then see how we can get that to slow. spread and share with others and get more people on board, which is I think what we've been doing.

Rachel: 9:54

It, it's totally what I've been doing for sure. like I said before, like I do try and grow that, that first 50% Within the folks that I'm working with and really kind of latch onto the ones who want to try and want to, to do new things. I mean, otherwise, it's, it's not a lot of fun working with those active resistors because they are going to actively resist every you, every step of the way. And, uh, so it, it only makes sense to start with those who are willing first. And gather evidence in order to be able to show the rest how impactful this could be for student learning. And it doesn't matter what kind of change you're doing, like I, I feel like that's always the best strategy to go about.

Katie: 10:40

Yeah. Although sometimes people do need to move, like equity work shouldn't be just when you're ready. Like, so in that sense, it's not about being ready, it's about recognizing our practices aren't working and they're inequitable and we need to fix that. but you're right. Like in terms of like mastery classrooms and even like the stuff we're doing in esl, like we need to keep moving. We see it's working. Is it hard? Yes, unfortunately it's very, very tough. But we see how it's working and we see the impact on students and we see the skill progression, so. we just have to keep on holding onto these like positives, and the things that make it worth it because it is not easy to try new things.

Rachel: 11:22

I think that's what I really liked about that quote, right? It's just that reminder, especially to hold the space for the struggle both in yourself and for others. I can tell you over the years, like I've been doing formal leadership role in my school for, for quite a number of years now, so. Well, most of the time it's hard to hold that space for the struggle, especially for myself. I'll, I'll, I'll start to question myself and question the decisions I'm making and whether it is really the right choice in the right direction or not. And so I just, I like that reminder to be able to hold that space for the struggle because I, I need that reminder.

Katie: 12:04

Yeah. No, I do too, because sometimes I'm like, this is too hard. Why am I doing this? Why am I making this so difficult for myself? And so I think recognizing that. it isn't easy. And giving ourselves an opportunity to work through those struggles and the emotions that come with it, I, I think that's the only way to kind of keep moving forward.

Rachel: 12:24

I will admit, I've been super guilty of this in the past. I've given up too. and given into the pressure and being like, this is just too hard. Like, why are we doing this? And backpedaled a bit. And I think that that's not, you know, really necessarily the right way to do it because sometimes you just, you have to push through that uncomfortableness, that messy middle in order to start to get to the other.

Katie: 12:52

Yeah. It's tempting and I know that I've done it too, but like it's like survival. Survival. How long can we make it happen?

Rachel: 13:00

So I, I just kind of really needed this reminder, which is why I think it's really resonating with me at the moment that, that it is messy, change is messy, and it's okay that it's messy.

Katie: 13:11

and, and I think it's just finding your people and they don't have to be your course team. It can be anybody in the building. And I think that's an important reminder because we often get so siloed into departments that. we, we forget that there's a whole host of people that are in the building with you that share your mindset and share your passion, and are willing to try new things too. And even just, you know, sharing ideas and, and bouncing some ideas off of people and things that you wanna try out. I think that's really helpful to keep that flame going and keep that passion going for it so that you don't give.

Rachel: 13:46

I have to say. And I, I have to give a shout out to Modern Classrooms Project because I joined about a year ago now. I joined their, their program and became an expert mentor, and I don't know where I would be without that community. That community for me is always a place to go back to, to. get the confirmation that mastery is the right direction for me. And it is, it is worth it, and it is worth the struggle, and it is worth the fight. And just to get, uh, encouraging words from the community, like it's such a great community of educators from all around the world. I, I. do the kind of work I'm doing without having, without having them.

Katie: 14:30

No, and that's key. So finding those communities and finding that network of people.

Rachel: 14:35

I think Twitter's another really great place though, to find a community of your people. So, for example, there's a great sort of community of folks who talk about un grading and alternative grading practices that I often go and check out and kind of check in with as uh, I'm feeling and starting to question what I'm doing with my grading practices in my classroom as well.

Katie: 14:59

Now, have you found that your Twitter feed has changed a little bit in the last little while?

Rachel: 15:04

It does it, it it has. so I like the communities tab. There are some great communities to join and then it's, it's all focused on that one topic. So there is an un grading community. Uh, We'll throw the link in the show notes for you. that's sort of where I go when I really just want to read some stuff about grading and grading practices and, get my head back in the.

Katie: 15:26

yeah. I find my uh, my, my home feed or my newsfeed is no longer what it once was. And I don't know how it's changed or what's going on with it, but uh, I'm definitely not seeing the people that I follow so much anymore, which is an interesting change.

Rachel: 15:42

I just see a lot about chat, G B T

Katie: 15:44

There is a lot of that, yes. But I get a lot of like rabble rousers and troublemakers on there now.

Rachel: 15:50

Oh, really? No, I, I haven't noticed that with mine.

Katie: 15:54

Ah, see, I don't see a lot from the people I normally. Now, I did take a break from Twitter for a bit, so maybe that's why, but I don't know.

Rachel: 16:01

Yeah. I've been, I've been stepping away from social media quite a bit too, and trying not to be uh, too active on there cuz I just, I really needed a mental break from it.

Katie: 16:10

That's fair. It's overwhelming.

Rachel: 16:12

All right. So what other tips do we have around leading change and, and sticking with the messy middle?

Katie: 16:20

Baby steps. I think it's all about just picking, you know, like taking small steps, doing small things to start implementing change so that it doesn't get too overwhelming too quickly. I think that's one of my big things.

Rachel: 16:33

I would agree. Baby steps for sure. I, I tend to go all in and I have to really restrain myself from being like, we're gonna do all of this. You know, I'm holding my ha my arms out, like really, really wide right now. Like, we're gonna do all of this. So I have to, I have to rein myself in and go, okay, what is the first step towards that? That big, big. what's the one thing that we can do? And I'm reading this book right now called The One Thing, so maybe this is, this is sticking in my mind from it, but it's like, what's the one thing that we could do right now that will have an impact and make everything else that we do easier and be able to, to do those things better and start there.

Katie: 17:15

Yeah, because that's one way to avoid the overwhelm and

Rachel: 17:18

it can't be overwhelming

Katie: 17:20

it, it, it can be very overwhelming.

Rachel: 17:24

I think also one other thing, and this is gonna sound, I don't know, like we're a broken record cliche, whatever, but it's if, if you're, if you're in a leadership position, whether it's formal or informal, it doesn't really matter. But if you're a leading change, you need to know the people that you're working with. you need to get to know your learners essentially. So it's, it's no different than what we do with our students in the classroom. It's really knowing those folks that you're working with, knowing where their boundaries are, where their interests lie, where their willing, willing to try or maybe not willing to try and knowing. As much as you can about them so that you know what strategy to use to approach the person. And that might sound a bit manipulative, I guess, a little bit, but like, it's, it's a strategy to get in and get the, the ball rolling, essentially.

Katie: 18:21

but I think. I don't think it's rude. I actually think it's respecting their boundaries too, because, you know, we don't wanna push, push, push, push and roll over people. Like that's not the goal with change. The goal is to find ways to make it work for, for everybody within their strengths. And, and you know, that those partnerships that we create together. And so, you know, I see that more as supporting one another and knowing. their capacity for some of these changes and how much support they might need, or perhaps maybe they're not quite as ready to go as extreme as maybe you are. So I actually think that's good advice because at the end of the day, we're a team, right? We're a team of teachers with the same goal.

Rachel: 19:02

I would also say then, kind of going along that line too, is like, if you can the, the one of the best ways to get to know someone and know. How they approach their teaching and, and all of that is even just kind of poking your head in their classroom for a little bit, if they're okay with that. Right. Just getting an idea of. what their classroom looks like. Like that's just a great way to learn from each other anyway. Obviously you would wanna make sure that that's okay first, that you're, you're kind of poking your head in. But uh, I think, uh, like in, in my department, we do that a lot. We're constantly in each other's rooms just because we're prepping labs and stuff like that. So I get to see a, a variety of, you know, my teachers in action, which is super, super helpful.

Katie: 19:48

Yep. And I think reciprocating that, so opening your classroom to others too. And it can be hard, but I think it's worthwhile. And I think it actually helps your confidence in the long run. So while it might seem scary the first few times you do it, it does get easier.

Rachel: 20:02

Yeah, I, I totally have an open door. Come on in whenever you want. Come see what I'm doing. It might not be super exciting or. innovative that day, but that's okay. Like it's, it's my classroom. It's what I do. If you wanna see like a mastery based classroom in action, my door's always open.

Katie: 20:17

Yeah.

Rachel: 20:18

I guess the other, maybe one thing to think about, especially if you are in more of a formal leadership rule, is uh, strategic staffing.

Katie: 20:27

Yeah, explain.

Rachel: 20:28

So knowing, maybe knowing and, and having a clear idea of what your goal is for a certain course. Like say, you know, that there needs to be change in this one course cuz the same people have maybe taught it for the past 10 years and it's a little stagnant. You wanna bring in different sort of strategies or something like that, whatever your goal might be, then you kind of have to take a look and go, okay, well with my staffing, who are the best people to fit that? Who are the people who are going to be willing to kind of jump in and try a few of these things with me?

Katie: 21:05

on that one and I'll tell you why. So I have a smaller staff in my department, so like to me, it's not always going to be strategic staffing because I can't do that. And then it also, I don't wanna undervalue what maybe more traditional teachers have been doing. Like I, to me, it's more of a conversation. How, how can we move people forward and what changes do we want to see as a department and how can we get there together without necessarily disrupting the whole system, if that makes sense.

Rachel: 21:34

Well, I guess the reason why I say it the way I say it is because after you've kind of done that year, one of the laying the initial foundation and that, then you can bring a couple more in and bring a couple more in, right? Like, and so you can build the momentum that way. Starting with the group who. Is willing to be crazy with you or try new things with you and then pull in the few who, oh, okay, I see what you're doing. I'm kind of interested to develop their skillset and then bring in a few more to further develop and, and eventually it spreads

Katie: 22:07

Now, what do you do with the act of resistors who reserve their professional judgment to not teach it the way you've established?

Rachel: 22:13

Well, I mean, at that point, I think it is about mitigating. What, what was the wording? Mitigating the negative impacts of the active resistors I would say especially the roles that Katie and I have, like as department heads, we technically don't really have any power. We are formal leaders in terms of our program areas, but if someone's like, Nope, not doing it, like there's nothing we can. Which puts us in a very strange kind of position. So it's, it's continuingly to actively encourage, actively have the conversations with the person and uh, really kind of just mitigate any negative impacts from what's going on there.

Katie: 22:53

Yeah. I found that um, not everybody's ready. And I get that. And not everybody feels like they have learned enough of the new methods or ways of teaching, and so they don't have that comfort level with it. So I don't know. I feel like we're doing a lot of baby steps, but I think that it's, it's baby steps that work holistically for the group of people, if that makes sense. although that being said, we're about to disrupt a whole bunch because we're, we're going to the fn mi English course for grade 11 next year, plus D streamed grade nine English, and so it's, it's about to get crazy

Rachel: 23:31

Yeah, I mean it's, it's, it's also having that conversation with those active resistors and finding. maybe the why, like why are they actively resisting? What is it about whatever change you're trying to bring in that's making them resist so hard? And also then having the conversation about, well, what can we try, like where, again, where is the boundary and where, where can we play a little? And then where can we, honor your comfort level with what we're.

Katie: 24:01

Yeah. And like how can we still. Maybe we have the same course, but we're approaching it differently. And, and I'm not opposed to that because I don't think that any two educators will ever have an identical course. And if they do, I question efficacy because we're all so different. But like I, I think you can, you have a lot of wiggle room in terms of how we. Present these courses and, and as long as we have some consistency in, evaluations, in terms of outcomes and skills, et cetera, like, I think that's, that's the key takeaway. And I think sometimes we need to step back and say they're not ready yet, and that's okay. And, and just kind of remind ourselves of that.

Rachel: 24:40

Yeah, for sure.

Katie: 24:41

I don't know, but I get it. I mean, you're at a massive school, so strategic staffing is much easier.

Rachel: 24:48

uh, Yeah, it, it's definitely easier when you have a staff of about 160 or so. Like my department alone is about 25 folks, so yeah, it's, it's a little bit easier to do some of that strategic staffing.

Katie: 25:02

Yeah. And you have a wide variety of programming too, which kind of fits the niches of of all of the individuals you have.

Rachel: 25:08

Yeah, for sure. So it's a worthwhile approach if, if it works out well.

Katie: 25:13

I, I really think that's the big advice. Like, like those are the main pieces of I, of Eddy X I would give to people. But like, don't give up. Don't, don't let. Your feelings of being overwhelmed by kind of the kickback or, or the struggles or like the, the things that don't work. Change is not short term change is unfortunately going to be very long term, and it's gonna take a while and you're gonna have to keep rejigging things and trying things in different ways, it's worth it in the end.

Rachel: 25:39

It's totally worth it in the end, and I needed that reminder for myself to hold the space for the struggle. Like I really, I really, really love that and uh, I need that constant reminder myself,

Katie: 25:51

I agree. I think we all do

Rachel: 25:52

Okay, so on that note then we're gonna wrap up our conversation about change here today. And so what we'll do is we'll include any of the links or resources we talked about here today in our show notes. You can access our show notes for this episode@edugals.com slash one 16. That's edu G A l s.com/one 16.

Katie: 26:15

And if you like what you heard today, then feel free to share it with a colleague or a friend. And don't forget to subscribe on your favorite podcast app so that you don't miss out on any future content.

Rachel: 26:24

And as always, we love hearing from you. So if you have any advice about change, things that have worked for you, maybe that we haven't mentioned here today, we would love it for you to share it with our community. You could go onto our flip at edu gals.com/flipgrid and leave us a message there, or you can go onto our website@edgygals.com and leave us a written.

Katie: 26:45

Thanks for listening and see you next week.